Industry Views

Pending Business: Non-Compete

By Steve Lapa
Lapcom Communications Corp
President

imIt’s complicated, this whole Federal Trade Commission ruling potentially banning the non-compete. Considering where you stand on the non-compete concept, it’s really all about evaluating the five “C” profile of your media business.

Personally, I sit at a roundtable where all sides are given equal consideration. More about that roundtable later.

First the five Cs of your media business: Company, Culture, Customers, Competition, Compensation. Let us define each.

1. Company – What is the image and reputation of your Company (management) internally?

Externally? Is your Company viewed as a destination or last resort for employment?

2. Culture – Is the atmosphere on your sales team or in your talent pool upbeat, positive performance driven, supportive, with access to key management? Is there a feedback loop that makes employee voices valued in this new world of Zoom, Teams, etc.? Is achievement recognized in a positive manner? Do sellers and talent have input into goals? Are missed goals treated like broken glass or the start of a learning curve?

3. Customers – Advertisers and audience are important customers. Advertisers, the cash register of any ad-based media model, move in only three directions – increase their spend, decrease their spend, flatline spending. Audience scale is the currency of your performing talent. Audience, like advertisers, can only go in three similar directions – increase, decrease, level off. If you are a subscription-based media entity, pay close attention to overdelivering subscriber expectations and lowering churn.

4. Competition – Keep a close eye on what your competitors are paying, how they are recruiting and what they are changing.

5. Compensation – My favorite. Have the courage to pay for performance at the high end and many of your non-compete clauses may not be needed.

Check the boxes on all five Cs in the model as outlined. Now back to my roundtable.

When you consider your company’s view, the non-compete in any media business that provides training (sales, talent, and other personnel), promotional investment, exposure to confidential research and strategies, is not simple to eliminate.

Consider the following:

1. The talent/show that is backed with a six-figure promotional campaign. Should the talent/show be allowed to seek employment at a competitor who is smart enough to realize, your company invested the money to make the talent/show a success, and all the competitor needs to do is revise compensation and lift a few restrictions? Your company’s investment could never be paid back.

2. Ever sit in on a focus group project? When the participants open the perception spigot, the bucket can fill up with verbal gold. Whomever gains access to that research and the resulting strategic change in direction has their hands on confidential information that can help drive results off the charts. How is the company’s investment in that research protected? What about the employees learning how it all works?

3. Good sales training, seminars, and off-site are not cheap, and considered an investment in all sellers and management. Should you really be permitted to walk across the street with no notice and all that expensive training in your laptop?

I’m writing this column as a roundtable, considering all sides and it is still complicated.

Steve Lapa is the president of Lapcom Communications Corp. based in Palm Beach Gardens, FL. Lapcom is a media sales, marketing, and development consultancy. Contact Steve Lapa via email at: Steve@Lapcomventures.com.

Industry News

Report: Francesa Says Tom Brady “Not Going to Be Great” TV Analyst

The publication Marca reports that former WFAN, New York afternoon drive legend Mike Francesa has a not great prediction about Tom Brady’s probability of success as a FOX Sports NFL color analyst. The seven-time Super Bowl winner will begin his 10-year, $375 million gig with FOX this September, takingim over for Greg Olsen alongside play-by-play announcer Kevin Burkhardt. Francesa is quoted saying that Brady obviously has a deep knowledge of the game but he believes Brady will struggle. “I don’t think his personality is such. I don’t think he’s going to be great at it. I really don’t. I think there’s a unique quality that you have to bring that allows you as an analyst to see the game, see the game quickly, plus bring personality into it. It’s a tricky job for the analyst in football because you’re going to spend a lot of time over replay. You’re going to spend a lot of time breaking down what happens on replay. And you also have to be very personable and glib in how you do it. I don’t see him there.” Read the Marca story here.

Industry News

Capitol Broadcasting Extends Panthers Partnership

The NFL’s Carolina Panthers and Capitol Broadcasting Company announce they have expanded their partnership to air live Panthers games in the Triangle region on WRAL-FM “MIX 101.5” beginning this fall. Games will be simulcast on “Buzz Sports Radio” (WDNC-AM, Durham; W283DE, Durham and WCMC-HD2, Holly Springs). CBC will continue its local, dedicated coverage and analysis of the Carolina Panthers on WCMC-FM “99.9 The Fan” and “Buzz Sports Radio” along with audio streaming and podcasts. The company says this contract extension through 2027 will make play-by-play broadcasts for all pre-season, regular season and post-season games, as well as the weekly “Panther Talk” and daily “Panthers Update” programs, available to listeners on one of the strongest FM signals in North Carolina.

Industry News

Media Research Center Files Petition to Deny Audacy Bankruptcy Exit

The conservative media watchdog organization Media Research Center has filed a Petition to Deny with the FCC the case of Audacy’s Chapter 11 reorganization, which must be approved by the Commission before the company’s radio stations’ licenses can be transferred to the New Audacy. The MRC notes in its Petition to Deny that Soros Fund Management, operated by liberal activist and billionaire Georgeim Soros, would become the largest shareholder in New Audacy and that Soros would “control these radio stations to advance their particular brand of activism.” Further, MRC objects saying that the FCC has an obligation to complete a full and thorough review and that the Commission is being asked to approve the change in ownership without this review, specifically imregarding the foreign ownership issue which the MRC says would not be handled as required by Section 310(b)(4) of the Communications Act of 1935 if the Soros Group gets what it wants. It’s asking the FCC “to waive that process and put it off until sometime down the road – indicating that those foreign stakeholders will be given ‘special warrants’ in the meantime. The Soros group says that putting off the required foreign ownership review will enable the FCC to expedite its approval of the Soros applications and thus allow them to more quickly realize their ownership interests in and take over the hundreds of local radio stations across the country.” The MRC argues that the Communications Act of 1935 “does not contain a special Soros shortcut.” Read the entire filing here.

Industry News

iHeartMedia and Deep Blue Launch Women’s Sports Audio Network

iHeartMedia and Deep Blue Sports + Entertainment announce a new partnership to launch the Women’s Sports Audio Network (WSAN), an audio platform dedicated exclusively to women’s sports. The companies say WSAN is a free, ad-supported network that will include podcasts, daily sports reports, spotlights and audio vignettes, social content, promotion and industry event presence, and will beim available across iHeartMedia’s broadcast, digital and podcast platforms and everywhere podcasts are heard. Talent to be heard on the platform include sports media personality Sarah Spain and WNBA legend & three-time Olympic gold medalist, Sheryl Swoopes, with more talent to be announced in the coming weeks. Deep Blue is led by agency veteran Laura Correnti as founder and CEO and WNBA legend Sue Bird as chief strategy officer. iHeartMedia chief marketing officer Gayle Troberman states, “Women’s sports are on fire and so is audio. The timing is perfect to deliver on the massive fan excitement today and most importantly use the power of iHeart’s massive audience reach to ensure women’s sports gets the attention it deserves.

Industry News

“Free Talk Live” Goes Independent Post-GCN

The nationally syndicated program “Free Talk Live” announces that it will continue operating as a completely independent program after Genesis Communications Network ceases operations on May 5.im Program founder Ian Freeman – who is currently in federal prison after a crypto-currency fraud conviction – thanked GCN and CEO Ted Anderson for 20 years of great syndication service. Freeman says the change will mean no recorded network inventory for affiliates and the elimination of the middleman means no more affiliate agreements. He adds that the current hosts of the program are dedicated to keeping “Free Talk Live” on the air.

Industry News

TALKERS News Notes

The nationally syndicated “Erick Erickson Show” adds new affiliate station KJCE, Austin. Erickson received a welcome to Austin message from Texas Governor Greg Abbott.

SiriusXM will present coverage of the 2024 NFL Draft, with live announcements of every selection from every round and in-depth analysis on the SiriusXM NFL Radio channel, as well as additional NFL Draft-focused programming on the SiriusXM College Sports Radio channel. The draft begins Thursday night from Detroit.

TALKERS 2024 Uncategorized

Powerful Agenda Being Set for TALKERS 2024: Radio and Beyond

The forthcoming 27th annual installment of  the talk media industry’s longest running and most important national gathering will be meticulously documented on video for posterity. TALKERS publisher Michael Harrison states, “Because the entire agenda of this year’s event will take place on the state of the art television soundstage ‘A’ at Hofstra University’s Lawrence Herbert School of Communication and a special staging area for individual interviews will be set up on the adjacent TV soundstage ‘B,’ the opportunity to create an in-depth video time capsule of this remarkably transitional moment in talk media history will be unprecedented.”  Harrison adds, “The number of heavyweight players from all ends of the business gathered in one place for one day on a television soundstage will be of tremendous historical significance.  We will grab the opportunity to save everything we can for posterity. This conference will be more than just another industry ‘convention.’  It will be a ‘symposium’ for the ages reflecting and preserving a remarkably colorful and historic era in American media and culture. People all over the world and for years to come will bear witness to this ‘happening.’”

All TALKERS 2024 activities take place in the Lawrence Herbert School of Communication on the campus of Hofstra University

REGISTRATION DESK OPEN

7:30 am to 5:00 pm

Registration Director: Barbara Kurland, Business Manager, TALKERS

Assistant Registration Director: Debbie Bernstein, Associate, TALKERS

EXHIBITION DISPLAYS OPEN

8:00 am to 5:00 pm

Backbone Networks

Representatives: George N. Capalbo, CTO; George L. Capalbo, Marketing Communications Director; Richard Cerny, President

Broadcasters General Store

Representatives: David Antoine, CBRE/CBNT, Sales Engineer; Buck Waters, Outside Sales Rep

Comrex

Representative: Chris Crump, CBNE, Senior Director of Sales & Marketing

BREAKFAST

8:00 am to 9:00 am

“Studio A” Television Sound Stage

Master of Ceremonies: Kevin Casey, VP/executive editor, TALKERS

Special Conference Kickoff: “Gaining Traction in a Noisy World”

Speaker: Joe “Pags” Pagliarulo, Host, “The Joe Pags Show”

Presentation of the Lifetime Achievement Award

Presenter: Mark Goldman, Co-founder/Media Relations Specialist, Goldman McCormick Public Relations.

Recipient: Howie Carr, Host, Howie Carr Radio Network

Sponsored by Sean Hannity / Premiere Networks

OPENING SESSION

9:00 am to 9:40 am

“Studio A” Television Sound Stage

Singing of the National Anthem 

Performed by: Daliah Wachs M.D., Host, “The Dr. Daliah Show”

Welcoming Greetings: “Radio and Beyond”

Speaker: Michael Harrison, Publisher, TALKERS

Presentation of the Woman of the Year Award

Special Remarks: Dave Gorab, VP/GM Talk Programming, SiriusXM Satellite Radio

Presenter: Larry Young, Host, WOLB, Baltimore

Recipient: Sharon “Sherry” Madison, Executive Producer, the Joe Madison Show, SiriusXM Satellite Network

Award Acceptance: TBA

Special Presentation: The Case for AM Radio

Introducer: Alex Fife, VP/Operations, Southeast, iHeartMedia, Total Traffic & Weather Network

Speaker: Bill Brady, Owner/Host, KFNX, Phoenix

Sponsored by the Doctor Asa Show

PANEL DISCUSSION: “GENERATING NEWS/TALK REVENUE IN THE DIGITAL ERA”

9:45 am to 10:25 am

“Studio A” Television Sound Stage

Introducer: Joe Thomas, Owner/PD/Host, WTON, Staunton, VA

Moderator: Steve Lapa, President, Lapcom Communications Corp.​

Panelists: Vince Benedetto, CEO, Bold Gold Media Group; John Caracciolo, President/CEO, JVC Broadcasting; Kathy Carr, President, Howie Carr Radio Network; Ron Hartenbaum, Managing Member, Crossover Media; Julie Talbott, President, Premiere Networks

Sponsored by The Martha Zoller Show

FIRESIDE CHAT: “THE STATE OF SPORTS TALK RADIO”

10:30 am to 10:55 am

“Studio A” Television Sound Stage

Host: Michael Harrison, Publisher, TALKERS

Guest: Fred Toucher, Co-host, Morning Show, WBZ-FM (98.5 The Sports Hub), Boston

Sponsored by Backbone Networks

PANEL DISCUSSION: “BRAVE NEW WORLD”

11:00 am to 11:35 am

“Studio A” Television Sound Stage

Moderator: Harry Hurley, Morning Host, WPG, Atlantic City

Panelists:  Scot Bertram, GM, WRFH/Radio Free Hillsdale 101.7 FM; Heather Cohen, President, The Weiss Agency; Steven Goldstein, CEO, Amplifi Media; Matthew B. Harrison, Esq., VP, associate publisher TALKERS / Senior Partner, Harrison Media Law; John T. Mullen, GM, WRHU-FM/WRHU.org, Hofstra University.

Sponsored by Premiere Networks

PANEL DISCUSSION: “PROGRAMMING NEWS/TALK RADIO”

11:40 am to 12:20 pm

“Studio A” Television Sound Stage

Introducer: Paul Vandenburgh, Owner/Host, WGDJ (Talk 1300), Albany

Moderator: Mike McVay, President, McVay Media Consulting

Panelists: Grace Blazer, VP, National NTS Brand Coordinator, Director of News and AM Programming Florida Region, iHeartMedia Miami; Phil Boyce, SVP, spoken word format, Salem Media Group; Ops VP, New York region/WMCA/ AM 970 The Answer; Bill Hess, Corporate PD, News/Talk, Cumulus Media / PD WMAL, Washington, DC; Scott Lakefield, APD, WOR, New York; Doug Stephan, CEO/founder, Stephan Multimedia/host “Good Day” morning show; Greg Stocker, Brand Manager, WPHT, Philadelphia.

Sponsored by The Ramsey Show

KEYNOTE ADDRESS: GLENN BECK 

12:25 am to 12:55 pm

“Studio A” Television Sound Stage

Speaker: Glenn Beck, Host, “The Glenn Beck Show” / Premiere Networks

Sponsored by Resorts Casino Hotel Atlantic City

LUNCH

1:00 pm to 2:25 pm

“Studio A” Television Sound Stage

Lunch Master of Ceremonies: Michael Harrison, Publisher, TALKERS

Dean’s Message: “Welcome to Hofstra”

Speaker: Mark Lukasiewicz, Dean, Lawrence Herbert School of Communication, Hofstra University

Special Greeting: “In Front of the Camera” 

Speaker: Rob Finnerty, host, “Wake Up America,” Newsmax TV

Presentation of the Humanitarian of the Year Award

Recipient: John Curley, Host, KIRO, Seattle

Broadcasters Foundation of America Donation/Spotlight

Presenter: Harry Hurley, Morning Show Host, WPG, Atlantic City

Acceptance: Scott Herman, Chairman, Broadcasters Foundation of America

Sponsored by Newsmax TV

SPECIAL PRESENTATION: “THE GREAT DEBATE”

2:30 pm to 3:00 pm

“Studio A” Television Sound Stage

Debaters:  Mike Gallagher, Host, Salem Radio Networks; Thom Hartmann, Host, WYD Media

Moderator: Lee Harris, Director, Integrated Operations, NewsNation / WGN, Chicago

Sponsored by Our American Stories 

PANEL DISCUSSION: “BEYOND POLITICS”

3:05 pm to 3:40 pm

“Studio A” Television Sound Stage

Moderator: David Bernstein; GM, Broadcast Operations, TALKERS

Panelists: Asa Andrew, M.D., Host, the Doctor Asa Show; Mike “Bax” Baxendale, Co-host, Morning Show, WAQY (Rock 102), Springfield, MA; Lee Habeeb, CEO/Host/Producer, “Our American Stories”/American Private Radio; Danielle Lin, Producer/Host, “The Art of Living and the Science of Life”; Walter Sabo, consultant, Sabo Media Implementers/Host “Sterling On Sunday”; Daliah Wachs, M.D., Host, “The Dr. Daliah Show.”

Sponsored by Doug Stephan’s “Good Day”

PANEL DISCUSSION: “BEHIND THE MIC”

3:45 pm to 4:20 pm

“Studio A” Television Sound Stage

Moderator: Joe “Pags” Pagliarulo, Host, “The Joe Pags Show”

Panelists: Howie Carr, Host, Howie Carr Radio Network; Dom Giordano, Host, WPHT, Philadelphia; Jeff Katz, host, WRVA, Richmond; Chris Krok, Host, WBAP, Dallas; Frank Morano, Host, WABC, New York/Red Apple Audio Networks; Martha Zoller, Host, WDUN, Gainesville, GA

Sponsored by Radio America

PANEL DISCUSSION: “THE BIG PICTURE”

4:25 pm to 5:05 pm

“Studio A” Television Sound Stage

Moderator: Michael Harrison, Publisher, TALKERS

Panelists: Kraig T. Kitchin, CEO, Sound Mind, LLC; Chad Lopez, President, WABC, New York/Red Apple Audio Network; Chris Oliviero, Market President, Audacy New York; Deborah Parenti, Publisher, Radio Ink RBR+TVBRTavis Smiley, Host / Owner, KBLA, Los Angeles/Smiley AudioMedia; Lisa Wexler, Host, WICC, Bridgeport.

Sponsored by The Michael Berry Show 

CLOSING RECEPTION

5:10 pm to 6:15 pm

“Studio A” Television Soundstage

Presentation of Freedom of Speech Award

Closing Reception Master of Ceremonies: Harry Hurley, Host, WPG, Atlantic City

Special Guest Speaker: Brian Kilmeade, Host, FOX News Radio / FOX News Channel

Presenter: Michael Harrison, Publisher, TALKERS

Recipient: John Catsimatidis, CEO/Owner, WABC, New York / Red Apple Audio Network

Sponsored by C. Crane

More TBA

Program agenda subject to change without notice

Attendance at the conference is limited to members of the working media and directly associated industries as well as communication students enrolled in accredited learning institutions. All attendees will be required to register in advance on the phone payable by credit card. Because attendance will be limited and the agenda outstanding, the conference is again expected to be an early sellout. The all-inclusive registration fee covering convention events, exhibits, food, and services for the day is $379. Because space will be limited and a sellout is anticipated, all registrations are non-refundable. To register for TALKERS 2024 or to obtain sponsorship information, call Barbara Kurland at 413-565-5413. The closest hotel to the conference is the nearby Long Island Marriott-Uniondale but it is nearly sold out. For a list of area hotels within a short drive to Hofstra, please click here.

Industry Views

Pending Business: Talk Radio Questionnaire

By Steve Lapa
Lapcom Communications Corp
President

imTime to thank the lawyers in the Donald Trump trial for once again proving beyond any doubt the power of talk radio.

1. Sellers – Get ready for Mother’s Day and Christmas rolled into one.

2. Managers – Prepare a fresh new page in your talk radio media kit.

3. On-air talk radio talent – Don’t throw away that lottery ticket, your number could come in.

4. Media consultants – Hit the brakes on making TV as an automatic first choice for your political campaigns, we’ve got a story for you.

5. Owners – Play your cards right and that talk radio format may have jumped in value.

It has been widely reported that jurors selected for the Donald Trump-Stormy Daniels trial were presented a questionnaire with the following question, “Do you listen to talk radio?” “If so, which programs?” Now wait just a minute all you jury profilers out there or fans of the TV show “Bull.” This is big, but I have a few questions of my own:

1. Why would any lawyer be interested in the radio listening habits of a (potential) juror?

2. Why specify “talk radio?”

3. What’s with the need to know about specific programs?

4. What’s the definition of “listen?” Daily? How long?

Maybe it’s time to recognize just what all this means to great talk radio talent and marketers.

I’m sure by now you have figured out where this goes – influence – as in talk radio hosts, the original influencers.

The very nature of a jury selection questionnaire screening for talk radio listening and specific programs is fascinating. Did an attorney conclude that talk radio shows influenced a potential juror’s feelings, opinions, perceptions (the very currency of talk radio) when it comes to Donald Trump or Stormy Daniels or any other key player on the legal stage?

As every seller knows, talk radio talents were the original influencers and continue to drive sales every day. To the local sellers and managers in the New York DMA pitching Sid Rosenberg, Joe Piscopo, Mark Simone and the other great local talents, imagine experienced legal teams evaluating the influence of their daily shows on potential jurors. Same for the nationally syndicated talent heard in the New York DMA. Talk radio lives and is influencing in the Big Apple!

“Do you listen to talk radio?” “If so, which programs?” that line of questioning should now become part of your daily marketing testimonial. After all, if teams of well-respected lawyers feel talk radio listening can influence the decisions of jurors in one of the most historic cases ever to be tried in our country, imagine what talk radio can do for your advertisers!

Steve Lapa is the president of Lapcom Communications Corp. based in Palm Beach Gardens, FL. Lapcom is a media sales, marketing, and development consultancy. Contact Steve Lapa via email at: Steve@Lapcomventures.com.

Industry News

BFoA Announces Philip J. Lombardo Spirit Award

The Broadcasters Foundation of America announces The Philip J. Lombardo Spirit Award to be presented annually at the Golden Mic Award Gala beginning in 2025. The BFoA says the Spirit Award will be bestowed upon an individual who exhibits the spirit of dedication and relentless drive to theim Broadcasters Foundation charitable mission exemplified by its former longtime chairman, Phil Lombardo, who passed away earlier this year. Board members, officers, supporters, contributors, and sponsors with a long history of demonstrating Lombardo’s commitment to the Foundation will be candidates for this special recognition. BFoA chairman Scott Herman says, “Phil brought the sense of urgency that is often needed to give donors an understanding of why they need to donate to our charitable purpose. He led the board for many years, overseeing significant advancements that brought in more funds, and thereby allowing us to continue to distribute financial aid to broadcasters in need.”

Industry News

Stephanie Miller Among Those To Enter Buffalo’s HOF

Buffalo Hall of Fame The Buffalo Broadcasters Association (BBA) has announced this year’s Broadcasting Hall of Fame inductees; Stephanie Miller included on the list is syndicated talk show host Stephanie Miller. Buffalo Broadcasters Association president Steve Monaco comments, “Our Hall of Fame classes become more impressive every year. Each inductee has made important contributions to broadcasting in Buffalo.” A standup comedienne and best-selling author, Miller gained her first radio experience doing comedy bits on Sandy Beach’s morning show. She began her talk radio career at Los Angeles’ KFI in 1994. Miller would later host afternoons in Los Angeles at KTZN in 1997, before doing evenings at KABC (1997 – 2000). Her show was heard on progressive news/talk KTLK from 2005 – 2013 and she started the “Stephanie Miller’s Happy Hour” podcast. In a 1995 Los Angeles Times interview, Miller admitted, “I never thought about doing talk radio. To me talk radio was like old gray-haired guys talking about the budget.” Miller’s fellow BBA 2024 inductees will be former WGR sports radio morning host Howard Simon; former WGR-TV news anchor/reporter Sheila Murphy (who was a news reporter/anchor at Buffalo radio outlets WGR-AM and WBEN); network television producer/writer/actor Nick Bakay; former WKBW-TV reporter Mary Travers Murphy; morning radio team Shredd & Ragan; WGRZ-TV videographer J. Dooley O’Rourke; and former director of national sales for Buffalo/Toronto Public Media Jim DiMino. The Buffalo Broadcasters Association Hall of Fame Dinner will be held September 19 at 7:00 pm at Samuel’s Grande Manor in Williamsville.
Industry News

KMJ’s Triple-Play Day At City Hall

Cumulus Media’s Fresno news/talk KMJ was celebrated in triplicate at Fresno City Hall yesterday (4/18), as Fresno Mayor Jerry Dyer officially declared April 18thChristopher Gabriel Day”; “Christina Musson Day”; and “Fresno’s Morning News Day.” Gabriel is part of KMJ’s “Morning News” (6:00 am – 9:00 am), while Musson co-hosts the station’s “Broeske & Musson” program (9:00 am – 11:00 am). The proclamations were in recognition of the station’s community service and several awards KMJ has recently received. KMJ’s morning news team – Gabriel, Liz Kern, KMJDon York and Gabe Navarro – won a Golden Mike for “Best Newscast” from RTNA Southern California; Gabriel also notched a “Best Sportscast” Golden Mike. Meanwhile, Musson won her second successive Alliance for Women in Media Foundation Gracie Award for “Best Co-Host, Talk/Personality – Small/Medium Market Radio.” Pictured above (top photo right to left): Fresno Mayor Jerry Dyer; KMJ, Fresno’s Christina Musson; her husband Ralph Rendon; and Fresno City Councilman Garry Bredefeld. Also pictured above (bottom photo left to right) Fresno City Councilman Garry Bredefeld; KMJ, Fresno’s Christopher Gabriel; his daughter Cadence; his wife Wendy; and Fresno Mayor Jerry Dyer.

Industry News

TALKERS News Notes

Industry News

AM Radio Legislative Hearing Set

Congressional Seal“Draft Legislation to Preserve Americans’ Access to AM Radio” is the title of a legislative hearing that House Energy and Commerce Committee chair Cathy McMorris Rodgers (R-Washington) and ranking member Frank Pallone (D-New Jersey) will hold the last day of the month (4/30). Rodgers and Pallone previously released draft legislation that mirrors legislative language the Senate Commerce Committee passed out last year. NAB president/CEO Curtis LeGeyt comments, “NAB is deeply grateful to chair Rodgers and ranking member Pallone for their continued leadership in safeguarding continued access to AM radio in new cars. With 82 million monthly listeners, AM radio is the backbone of the Emergency Alert System and serves as a trusted source of factual news and diverse programming in communities across the country. Local broadcasters look forward to continuing to work with [Rodgers, Pallone] and all committee members to ensure this critical communications medium remains accessible to listeners across the country.” The AM Radio for Every Vehicle Act (S.1669/H.R. 3413) currently has 48 co-sponsors in the Senate and 245 House co-sponsors. In related news KFNX, Phoenix owner Bill Brady will be delivering an address titled “The Case for AM Radio” at the forthcoming TALKERS 2024:Radio and Beyond conference on June 7 at Hofstra University.  More information in stories below and here.
Industry News

Winding Up A Sterling Career

Industry News

Berliner Resigns From NPR

NPR

As we reported just yesterday (TALKERS  4/17), NPR senior business editor Uri Berliner was suspended one week without pay from the public media organization after writing an essay for Substack publication The Free Press without first seeking permission from NPR as required by his contract. Now comes word from The New York Times that Berliner – who accused the broadcaster of liberal bias in that online piece – has resigned from the nonprofit. In his resignation letter, Berliner called NPR “a great American institution” that should not be defunded. In the letter posted on his X (formerly Twitter) account, Berliner writes, “I respect the integrity of my colleagues and wish NPR to thrive and do important journalism.” He, however, continues that he “cannot work in a newsroom where I am disparaged by a new CEO whose divisive views confirm the very problems I cite in my Free Press essay.” CBS News notes that Katherine Maher, who became NPR’s CEO last month, wrote a staff memo several days after publication of Berliner’s essay addressing his criticisms of the organization’s editorial process. Among Berliner’s claims are that NPR is failing to consider other viewpoints and that it is fixated on diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives.   
Industry News

KSL, Salt Lake City Adds “America Tonight”

Kate DelaneyThis past Sunday (4/14) in Las Vegas, Kate Delaney was a keynote speaker for the NAB Leadership Foundation’s “Focus on Leadership” speaker series. The “America Tonight” host comments, “I was honored to speak at NAB this year. Radio, at its best, keeps and grows an audience with great storytelling, innovative use of audio and the experience you create for listeners.” Delaney’s NAB appearance coincided with the announcement that her Talk Media Network show joins the nighttime lineup of Bonneville Salt Lake City news/talk KSL, which just received an NAB Crystal Radio Award. “I’m thrilled ‘America Tonight’ can now be heard on KSL,” Delaney states. “It’s a powerful station with a rich history of serving its listeners.” Program director Kevin LaRue adds, “KSL is excited for overnight news programming with a combination of solid information and a big personality to be a trusted companion to our listeners.” Talk Media Network CEO Josh Leng remarks, “Kate Delaney is a pro’s pro. She’s made her own luck, through hard work and great communication. Talk Media Network is proud to be expanding her audience. Thank you KSL for continuing to invest in radio. Your operation is one of the best, shining examples in our business.” Meanwhile, “Amazing Americans” founder Jerry Schemmel passes hosting duties of the weekly, one-hour show he started in 2019 to Delaney who looks forward “to continuing to share compelling and captivating and inspirational stories of human achievement. Radio listeners are hungry for authentic, true-life stories, to leave them feeling inspired.” Meet Kate Delaney at TALKERS 2024: Radio and Beyond on June 7 at Hofstra University.
Industry Views

Sabo Sez: Tap into The Book of Secrets

By Walter Sabo
Consultant, Sabo Media Partners
A.K.A. Walter M. Sterling
Radio Host, “Sterling On Sunday”
Talk Media Network

imGrowing a brand is a memory game. Which message will a target consumer value, remember it and take it to the cash register?  The answer is not complicated but it is complex.

A great amount of energy and brain power goes into brand names, logo design, show topics but very little study is made of how often a company should deliver information to their target. The answer to the question of “how often” is critical to landing marks in the Nielsen diary, seeking for your station online or in-car. Effective frequency is essential to everyone’s success!

“When you’re sick of the song, that’s when the listener is just hearing it…” isim about all the science any of us have been tutored in on the subject of effective frequency.

Frequency of message has, in fact, been studied for over 100 years and the answers are astonishing!  The most important, useful  frequency of message studies are in the book, Effective Frequency: The Relationship Between Frequency and Advertising Effectiveness.

I bought the book in 1981 to find answers to how much external advertising does a station need to win (remember?)… how often to rotate a song promo or topic? The answers are not found in myth and legends but in hard studies conducted by companies such as Lever Brothers and Procter & Gamble.

The book was assembled by the Association of National Advertisers. It is a collection of landmark major studies on how memory is Impacted by the frequency of message exposure.  Expertise on the workings of memory is obviously the most important knowledge in a Nielsen diary market and vital to growth in metered markets if a station has been starved of a promotion budget. This book was edited by the head of research for Lever Brothers, Michael J. Naples.

The next three Sabo Sez columns will highlight more actionable data from the book. For example, the studies in the book offer hard data about on how many spots your listener can tolerate, how often to state and restate the topic, phone number, your name and more. This book has, by far, offered my work the most powerful guidance of any source.

Here are a few facts you might be able to put to use right now:

1. The first and last spot in a cluster enjoys the greatest recall. Promos work equally well in either position. Spots placed first and last should be charged more.

2. Moving money out of a TV campaign and putting it into a radio campaign will neither diminish nor improve response. BUT holding the money in a TV campaign and adding money for a radio campaign will improve response.

3. Stunning: For many product categories, daypart significantly impacts the likelihood of conversion to sales. Food product commercials, according to an Ogilvy & Mather study, convert to sales significantly better in late night, fringe time than in daytime.  In fact, food product ads in prime time have a negative impact on sales.

4. Properly conducted research for consumer goods products can be successfully applied to media content development.

Walter Sabo has been a C Suite action partner for companies such as SiriusXM, Hearst, Press Broadcasting, Gannett, RKO General and many other leading media outlets. His company HITVIEWS, in 2007, was the first to identify and monetize video influencers. HITVIEWS clients included Pepsi, FOX TV, Timberland, Microsoft, and CBS Television. He can be reached at walter@sabomedia.com and www.waltersterlingshow.com. “Sterling On Sunday,” from Talk Media Network airs 10:00 pm-1:00 ET, now in its 10th year of success.

Industry News

NPR Suspends Editor Over Critical Essay

NPR senior business editor Uri Berliner has been suspended for one week from the public media organization after writing an essay for the Substack publication The Free Press without seeking permission from NPR first as required by his contract. However, it was the content of the piece that’sim caused controversy as Berliner criticized the organization saying it “had allowed liberal bias to affect its coverage.” This comes as there is renewed interest among conservative legislators in challenging the use of federal funds for public media with allegations of editorial bias as a primary reason to end federal underwriting of media. NPR managing editor for standards and practices Tony Cavin spoke to The New York Times about Berliner’s piece and said it “mischaracterized NPR’s coverage of crucial stories.” Read the NYTimes story here.

Industry News

TALKERS News Notes

Longtime WIBC-FM, Indianapolis talk radio host Tony Katz is entering into national syndication via Key Networks, beginning April 22. “Tony Katz Today” will air live Monday through Friday from 12:00 noon to 3:00 pm ET from Urban One’s news/talk WIBC-FM and a weekend program is also available for air on Saturday or Sunday.

iHeartMedia and Charlamagne Tha God’s The Black Effect Podcast Network announces a new original series titled, “Family Therapy: The Podcast,” hosted by psychotherapist Elliott Connie. It will document a family’s journey to healing through live group and individual therapy sessions. President of creative development and production Dollie S. Bishop says, “We are excited to announce ‘Family Therapy: The Podcast’ and share this incredible journey with listeners. Elliott Connie is a brilliant counselor, and our hope is that this series will entertain, educate and empower people to prioritize mental wellbeing and strengthen familial bonds.”

Audacy Podcasts adds a new show from Puck, the new media company focused on putting journalists at the center of its business model, with “Fashion People,” hosted by Lauren Sherman, a leading voice in the fashion community and writer of Puck’s private email “The Line Sheet.”

A new podcast from New England Public Media uses a mix of storytelling, psychological insight, and societal commentary to examine the stories we don’t tell, what they say about our world, and what they do to our minds. “The Secrets We Keep,” is hosted by veteran NEPM reporter Karen Brown and uses the lens of secrets to explore societal taboos and stigmas around sexual orientation, abortion, genetic origins, family scandals, and money – through the voices of secret-keepers, and those kept in the dark.

Industry News

Erica Farber Honored with MIW’s Inaugural “Impact Award”

Mentoring and Inspiring Women in Radio, Inc honors RAB president and CEO Erica Farber with the inaugural “Impact Award.” This honor is “dedicated to honoring a woman who has effected positive change on multiple fronts. A true champion of service, this individual actively engages with impactful organizations, generously contributing their time, wisdom, network, and resources. They are deeplyim involved, consistently doing the work necessary to drive meaningful change.” Farber’s long and storied broadcasting career includes her work leading the RAB for the past 12 years. MIW board president Ruth Presslaff says, “What more can be said about Erica that hasn’t yet been said? She is a strategic thinker and true trendsetter who gives generously of her time and wisdom. MIW is a better organization because of her.  The industry has been enriched in countless ways because of her. What an impact this woman has made!” Farber comments, “I am deeply honored. Being recognized by such influential women in the industry is incredibly meaningful and humbling to me. I owe immense gratitude to the mentors and inspirational women who have supported and uplifted me along the way. They are the foundation of my success. My heartfelt thanks go to Ruth and the MIW Board, and to all of you who share my passion for radio and the impactful work we are privileged to do every day.”

Industry News

Futuri: Audiences Expect Media to Use AI

According to a study from Futuri and CMG Custom Research, not only do radio and television audiences expect media to use artificial intelligence in broadcasts, 20% believe they’ve already listened to a radio station using it and 49% of TV news viewers believe they’ve seen it. Futuri CEO Daniel Anstandig presented the results of the nearly 5,200-person study at the NAB Show in Las Vegas. Other takeaways from the study include that for radio, people cannot easily distinguish between human and AI audioim content: Participants were presented with paired samples of AI-generated voices created using Futuri’s AudioAI and human voices. 60% of the time, they identified the AI as human. The study also found respondents open to the use of AI with many believing that AI will improve content across news, video, and audio. For example, 45% of TV news viewers believe AI can assist in selecting better news stories; 54% of local TV news viewers believe AI can enhance weather forecasts, showcasing the potential for AI to elevate traditional news through proper newsroom integration; and respondents also indicated a high level of trust in AI-generated content, specifically when informed by reputable sources like local and national news outlets. Anstandig comments, “Futuri’s study shows that audiences are open to media’s adoption of AI for content creation. In fact, they already believe they’ve experienced AI in use on radio and television. We learned that audiences believe that AI will assist media in creating more relevant and engaging content. They just want to be informed of its use, and for it to be used in the right scenarios.

Industry News

Former OK City Talk Host Carole Arnold Dies at 85

The Oklahoman reports that former Oklahoma City talk radio host Carole Arnold died last Friday at age 85 after a long battle with pulmonary fibrosis. Arnold worked for then-Clear Channel Communications for about 20 years, including eight as a host at news/talk KTOK. She left KTOK in 1996 and later worked at KNOR, Norman and KOMA, Oklahoma City (now KOKC). Read the full obit here.

Industry News

WLS-AM, Chicago Celebrates 100 Years of Service

Cumulus Media news/talk WLS-AM celebrated 100 years on the air on Friday (4/12) and over the weekend. The station launched on April 12, 1924, at 6:00 pm. The station aired a two-part special hosted by Jeff Davis on Saturday and Sunday from 4:00 pm to 8:00 pm. Cumulus Chicago viceim president and market manager Marv Nyren says, “WLS is bigger than a destination on your radio dial – it’s a Chicago institution and treasure. 100 years ago, radio was simply sound communication via radio waves but there’s nothing simple about the impact of WLS on Chicago. WLS has been a neighbor, a friend, and a mentor for people in Chicagoland. It’s been a place where people can go for entertainment and information – and it’s been a companion to the biggest moments in history. We are excited to usher in WLS-AM’s next 100 years with Chicago’s best audio content on-air, online, on-demand, and onsite.”

Industry News

Urban One Receives Non-Compliance Notice from NASDAQ

Urban One reports that it received a letter from the Listing Qualifications Department of the Nasdaq Stock Market LLC on April 8 notifying the company that it was not in compliance with requirements of Nasdaq Listing Rule 5250(c)(1) as a result of not having timely filed its Annual Report on Form 10-K forim the fiscal year ended December 31, 2023, with the Securities and Exchange Commission. Urban One now has 60 calendar days, or until June 7, 2024, to submit a plan to regain compliance. If Nasdaq accepts the compliance plan, the Nasdaq staff may grant the company an exception of up to 180 calendar days from the filing’s due date, or until September 11, 2024, to regain compliance. Urban One says it is working diligently and expects to file its 2023 Form 10-K within the 60-day period, which would eliminate the need for it to submit a formal plan to regain compliance.

Industry Views

Pending Business: Dizzying Media Headlines

By Steve Lapa
Lapcom Communications Corp
President

imThe media headlines are dizzying these days, yet they all share one common thread. See if you can solve this puzzle.

1. The “Golden Batchelor” is getting divorced, three months after tying the knot.

2. Netflix is changing their film strategy, that according to The New York Times, may mean fewer big advances to stars.

3. NCAA Women’s basketball final delivered more TV viewers than UConn’s back-to-back championship finale vs. Purdue.

4. Retail media networks are real and could replace terrestrial radio as the true purchase influencer.

These headlines reflect what great radio programmers learned a long time ago, and what smart sellers practice every day. The concept is elegantly simple: give the people what they want, and the rest will take care of itself.

The “Golden Batchelor” was targeted at the 55+ audience. The biggest demographic watching traditional TV. The finale drew over 6 million viewers and gave millions of seniors hope for romance at any age. Give the people what they want, and the audience and advertisers followed. The breakup, well maybe that leans more Dr. Phil, and he is starting his own network!

Netflix has a new film boss, Dan Lin, and according to a recent article in The New York Times, he wants the Netflix film lineup to have a wider appeal to more of us 260 million Netflix subscribers. Sound familiar? Give a bigger share of the audience more of what they want.

Pioneering radio programmers learned that strategy before Netflix was a business model.

Start with Top 40 music radio, go to the all-news model and park your pick on your favorite pioneering talk radio talent. Listeners got what they wanted, as audience and advertisers followed.

Nearly 19 million watched as Caitlin Clark tried one last time to drive her team to victory. Her final push wasn’t enough to defeat a determined South Carolina team. It didn’t matter to the millions who tuned in and the advertisers who were smart enough to jump on board. Give the fans a superstar from Iowa named Caitlin and an audience of millions will follow.

Don’t look now, but that old-school pitch of radio being the final purchase influencer as the radio plays in the car on the way to the store, is fading fast. I can’t tell you how many times I made that classic pitch, until I heard “Attention ______ shoppers” as I pushed my cart down the aisle.

Retail media networks are now online as well as “on-the-air” in store, and we are spending more and more time shopping online.

What does it all mean to you, the seller? Simple! Just find what your advertisers want and sell it!

Steve Lapa is the president of Lapcom Communications Corp. based in Palm Beach Gardens, FL. Lapcom is a media sales, marketing, and development consultancy. Contact Steve Lapa via email at: Steve@Lapcomventures.com.

Industry News

Salem Launches “This Week on the Hill”

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Pictured above at the Salem Media Group studios in Washington, DC are (from l-r): Family Research Council president (and program host) Tony Perkins, U.S. House Speaker Mike Johnson (R-LA), and Salem Radio Network v.p./news and talk programming (and program executive producer) Tom Tradup. Early this morning, they taped the first edition of the new, hour-long weekly news program, “This Week on the Hill,” that premieres this weekend on the Salem Radio Network with additional releases on the Salem News Channel, Salem Podcast Network and on TOWNHALL.com. Topics covered this weekend include Johnson’s invitation to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to address a joint session of Congress, Marjorie Taylor Greene’s “motion to vacate” the Speaker’s position, the battle over reauthorization of the FISA program, and the latest controversy over abortion laws in America. Tradup states, “We are so proud to have Speaker Johnson as the centerpiece of our ‘This Week’ program. He brings a depth of experience that delves beyond the surface skirmishes in Congress and really gives our audience eye-level insight that only a man two-heartbeats from the presidency can offer.”

Industry News

Paul Rotella Recognized by the PDFNJ

In an acknowledgment of his tireless dedication and impactful leadership, the Partnership for a Drug-Free New Jersey (PDFNJ) is honoring Paul S. Rotella, Esq. with the esteemed J.P. Miele Lifetime Achievement Award at its 30th Angel of Hope Gala on May 15, 2024, at the Liberty House in Jersey City.im This tribute recognizes Rotella’s pivotal role in combating substance misuse during his 14-year tenure as president and CEO of the New Jersey Broadcasters Association (NJBA). Rotella says, “One of my first official acts as the chief executive officer of the New Jersey Broadcasters Association was to aid and assist the Partnership for a Drug-free New Jersey and its ongoing mission. Now, more than ever, the good work of the Partnership is essential to educate the public in combating the insidious scourge drug abuse is on our society and community. This work remains one of our most worthwhile endeavors and I’m so very proud of their initiatives. The Partnership’s vital objective is strengthened through relationships with all community organizations across the Garden State, like the NJBA, so as to continue to be successful. It’s a privilege to be associated with the partnership and its leadership!”

Industry News

WWO: Nielsen Shows AM/FM Radio Improves Ad Campaign Reach

This week’s Cumulus Media | Westwood One Audio Active Group blog looks at a Nielsen analysis of the reach of media plans – specifically those that are rooted heavily in Linear TV with the addition of CTV (connected TV) and digital in the mix. No matter how much CTV and digital spend was added in place of dollars taken from Linear TV, reach did not increase. The blog post says, “Regardless of the size of yourim media budget, adding AM/FM radio to a digital/TV plan sharply builds reach. Via Nielsen Commspoint, the media allocation planning tool, a wide range of monthly digital/TV media plans were examined. Very small, light, medium, and heavy campaigns were examined. The lightest digital/TV campaign reached 10% of the market. The heaviest reached 60%. Then a 20% allocation of AM/FM radio was introduced. The results were stunning. Across the seven monthly campaigns, from the lightest to the heaviest, the addition of AM/FM radio generated significant lifts in reach. Shifting 20% of the lightest TV/digital campaign to AM/FM radio caused reach to double. Introducing the 20% allocation of AM/FM radio to medium-sized campaigns causes reach to soar by 36% to 55%. Even the heaviest TV and digital campaign saw reach grow 20% with the addition of AM/FM radio to the plan.” Read the full blog post here.

Industry Views

Monday Memo: The Irresistible Offer

By Holland Cooke
Consultant

imHaving written thousands of commercials and promos, I’ve become a copy connoisseur. And, admittedly, a tough grader when it comes to delivery. Sell me and you’re good.

So, all four flight attendants caught my ear as I flew to/from a radio conference in Hawaii. The pitch came toward the end of 10+ hours each way nonstop Boston/Honolulu; and aboard the quick hops to/from Kauai.

They sounded neither sing-songy, as though they were reading; nor falsely enthusiastic. That alone impressed me. Thirty years ago, I scripted such announcements – and coached flight attendants – when I programmed 3 live USA Today Sky Radio channels aboard Delta, United, and Northwest Airlines. Back to the future…

They were hawking the Hawaiian Airlines Mastercard, which, already having a wallet full of plastic, I didn’t need. Each dollar spent earns a Hawaiian Mile (double miles for restaurant purchases), which would be tempting if I wanted to visit again. But I wasn’t sold… yet. I had been to Hawaii once before, on vacation, and only went this second time for business. Travelogue here recently explains that we East Coasters have quicker paths to paradise.

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Typically, these affinity cards come with a signing bonus. Another one I have awarded 20,000 points if I used it to make at least $1,000 in purchases within the first 90 days. So, I smiled when these flight attendants emphasized that – using the promo code on applications they were handing out – I could quickly earn 80,000 miles, a bonus “you won’t see if you sign-up online.”

And as an announcement aficionado, I noted how all four recited this line verbatim: Unlike other cards that ask $1,000 or more purchases to qualify, “Just buy a cup of coffee or a pack of gum, and you’ve got 80,000 Hawaiian Miles.”

And they explained that 80K was enough for a free round trip from Boston or New York to Honolulu, or TWO round trips from a West Coast airport… DARN tempting… if I ever want to go back to Hawaii. Still not sold.

The clincher? I can also use those miles on JetBlue, which services my home airport, Providence, and flies to the Bahamas. SOLD. And my first purchase was indeed for a cup of coffee, and I did get the 80,000 miles. So, this is my restaurant card now.

Every time I’ve told this story in a client station sales meeting, at least one rep says, “Spell that all out again?” and starts writing. Successful sellers anticipate and address objections as well as that inflight announcement. Ditto commercial copy you craft for local retailers. Welcome aboard.

Holland Cooke (HollandCooke.com) is a consultant working at the intersection of broadcasting and the Internet. He is the author of The Local Radio Advantage: Your 4-Week Tune-In Tune-Up,” and “Close Like Crazy: Local Direct Leads, Pitches & Specs That Earned the Benjamins” and “Confidential: Negotiation Checklist for Weekend Talk Radio.” Follow HC on Twitter @HollandCooke and connect on LinkedIn

Industry Views

Pending Business: Personal

By Steve Lapa
Lapcom Communications Corp
President

imThe work-life balance concept is up for a new spin. Let us start in California.

A recent article in the LA Times discussed the California “right-to-disconnect” bill, “guaranteeing workers the right to ignore after-hours call, emails and texts from employers.” It is not a law yet, but if Assemblyman Matt Haney has his way, the workday could be redefined, again.

We have moved from being overworked and underpaid to the covid-driven culture of work from home and working remotely. Dress codes took on a new meaning as we Zoomed and Teamed our way through meetings, calls, and brainstorming sessions.

As the total remote work concept is being revisited by many media companies we have moved towards a hybrid of the number of in-office days vs. total remote days. Many ad agencies and rep firms are getting increasingly comfortable leaning into mainly remote work as commercial office space vacancies hit all-time highs in many cities.

With the warp speed advances of communication in the digital world, we now have the 24/7/365 always-on mindset. Some companies hire sales and customer service reps in all time zones to align unique sales and marketing with a heightened level of customer expectations.

How disappointed do you get when you hear, “our normal business hours are_____, please call back.” Are you kidding me with “normal?” One contract required my own company, considered a small business, to maintain production teams on both the East and West Coasts to adhere to final edits and posting deadlines.

The new world truly is business unusual. The “right-to-disconnect” does have a key place in the blurred workplace. The question is how to manage such a unique concept as not answering the phone when caller ID says, “Boss.”

Let us complicate the picture with my favorite growing trend, “The 4-day Work Week.” If you are in sales or marketing, you could be drooling at the opportunity this will create. No, not more time AT the beach or golf course for you the seller. I am thinking about the new opportunities to talk to the marketing director of the resort, golf course, family get-away or any other leisure activity that could make that long weekend a permanent lifestyle fixture. Some phenomenally successful businesspeople have already placed their bets. As we redefine the work-life balance, new categories will open right in front of you. Stay focused. Pickleball, anyone?

Steve Lapa is the president of Lapcom Communications Corp. based in Palm Beach Gardens, FL. Lapcom is a media sales, marketing, and development consultancy. Contact Steve Lapa via email at: Steve@Lapcomventures.com.

Industry News

Happy Eclipse Day!

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Stations and hosts around the nation report to TALKERS that they are getting mileage and traction out of today’s rare eclipse of the sun that is presenting the exciting phenomenon of totality in many parts of the country and near-totality in others. The story covers a range of angles from how to avoid the dangers of viewing the event without appropriate eye protection, to the tourism and travel implications, to the scientific basis of the event, and to myths and legends attached to it from a historical perspective. A number of hosts say the eclipse provides a welcome opportunity to provide a brief and fascinating natural topical alternative that is neither political nor a disaster. Some radio stations are providing listeners with safety-approved disposable glasses imprinted with their logos. Pictured above are almost exact similar takes on two topical themes depicted by world-renowned American ex-pat artist/musician and TALKERS contributor Bobbie Winston (a.k.a. La Femme Bobbie) based in Copacabana, Brazil for the past 35 years. The first is her 2020 piece titled “The New Normal” depicting life during the pandemic. The new one, “Total Eclipse,” just released is her impression of today’s cosmic event. Check her out here.