Industry News

“Free Talk Live” Goes Independent Post-GCN

The nationally syndicated program “Free Talk Live” announces that it will continue operating as a completely independent program after Genesis Communications Network ceases operations on May Program founder Ian Freeman – who is currently in federal prison after a crypto-currency fraud conviction – thanked GCN and CEO Ted Anderson for 20 years of great syndication service. Freeman says the change will mean no recorded network inventory for affiliates and the elimination of the middleman means no more affiliate agreements. He adds that the current hosts of the program are dedicated to keeping “Free Talk Live” on the air.

Industry News

Genesis Communications Network to Shut Down

TALKERS has learned that effective Sunday May 5, Genesis Communications Network (GCN) will be ending its broadcasting operations.  In a letter sent to its program producers, signed by GCN owner/CEO Ted Anderson and chief engineer George Prondzinski, it states, “It is with great sadness, I wish to inform you that the Genesis Communications Network will be closing effective Sunday May 05, 2024. im This decision has been most difficult for us to make in lieu of poor economic and industry conditions. We apologize for the inconvenience this will cause you and appreciate your affiliation with GCN.”  GCN was launched in 1998 by Anderson and has featured a diverse line up of daily and weekend programming covering politics, finance, health, self-help, how-to and topics of general interest. At last count the network was carrying 37 hosts and programs including Alex JonesWhen asked by TALKERS if GCN would continue in any form, Anderson replied, “No, I’m done but would entertain proposals from anyone interested.”  

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TALKERS News Notes

PodcastOne enters into a new agreement with Kelly Stafford for her “The Morning After with Kelly Stafford & Hank” podcast for exclusive distribution and advertising sales rights. The podcast starring the wife of LA Rams QB Matthew Stafford and Detroit TV news personality Hank Winchester launched in 2021 and joined the PodcastOne network in 2022. PodcastOne president and co-founder Kit Gray comments, “Kelly is a leading voice in the parenting influencer space. She has been a big part of our network, and we are thrilled to have her extend with us. We love the recent addition of Hank as co-host of ‘The Morning After’ and can’t wait to see where the show goes moving forward.”

GCN-syndicated talk host Dr. Daliah Wachs adds Jeri Lyn Broadcasting’s adult contemporary KHTS-AM/K251CF, Santa Clarita, California to its roster of affiliate stations. KHTS airs the program on Saturdays from 11:00 am to 1:00 pm.

Virtual News Center adds Four Corners Broadcasting, LLC’s five stations serving the Durango, Colorado market to is roster of affiliates. Local newscasts are being anchored by Sandi Conner.

Industry News

Dr. Daliah Wachs “Smashes Two for the Team”


GCN nationally syndicated talk radio host Dr. Daliah Wachs is pictured above getting a mammogram. She tells TALKERS magazine, “Breast cancer awareness isn’t just during the month of October, but all year round and I strive each year to show people how simple, painless and unintimidating mammograms can be (thanks to Steinberg Diagnostic Medical Imaging.)”

Industry News

Doug Stephan Shows Change Satellite Channels

Effective Tuesday (10/31), the “Good Day with Doug Stephan and Jai Kershner,” show along with Stephanim MultiMedia’s weekend programs, are migrating to new satellite distribution as the programming shifts from GCN Channels 1, 3, 4 & 6 to Wegener/Westwood One Satellite Channel A-1DBV165. GCN will continue to offer audio access via Echo Box.

Industry News

XDS Service for GCN-Syndicated Shows to End November 1

Talk radio programs syndicated by Burnsville, Minnesota-based Genesis Communications Networks learned this week that XDS satellite delivery service to affiliate stations will not be provided after November 1, 2023. As a full-service radio syndicator, GCN provides affiliate sales, commercial sales,im and satellite delivery of programming. It contracts for that XDS satellite delivery from Westwood One. GCN CEO Ted Anderson tells TALKERS, “We’ve been working with Westwood One for almost 30 years and it appears that we are at an impasse with them contractually going forward. It has been a very positive and productive relationship, but it is time to move on. C-Band is a legacy technology that developed in the earlier days of talk radio but it is no longer a fundamental choice. We intend to provide our hosts and clients with modern, real-time audio with less delays than C-Band.”

Industry News

TALKERS News Notes

PodcastOne president and co-founder Kit Gray will present at the ThinkEquity Conference on Thursday, October 19 at 4:00 pm ET. The event will be held in-person at the Mandarin Oriental Hotel in New York City and Gray will meet with professional investors throughout the day.

Ingstad Family Media’s news/talk KNUJ/K247CU, New Ulm, Minnesota adds the GCN-syndicated “Dr. Daliah Wachs Show” to its lineup airing 1:00 am to 4:00 am ET.

Boston-based public media firm GBH is covering the Worcester, Massachusetts mayoral race with a debate live from the organization’s Worcester bureau on Monday (10/16) at 6:00 pm. Reporter Sam Turken will moderate an open-format debate among the five candidates. The debate will be broadcast as a video livestream on the GBH News website and the GBH News YouTube channel.

WJCT Public Media names Anne Schindler permanent host of the flagship daily public affairs program “First Coast Connect” on WJCT-FM, Jacksonville “News 89.9,” effective October 30. , 2023. Schindler is a producer, journalist, and editor who has served as executive producer of special projects for “First Coast News” and editor-in-chief of Folio Weekly.

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TALKERS News Notes

Salem Media Group, Inc announces that it plans to report its second quarter 2023 financial results after the market closes on August 8.The company also plans to host a teleconference to discuss its results on August 8 at 5:00 pm ET.

Audacy and K-STATE athletics announce a multiyear broadcast partnership in which KFH-AM/FM, Wichita will become the new market affiliate for Wildcat football and basketball. The agreement includes all K-STATE football and men’s basketball broadcasts, plus selected women’s basketball broadcasts. Audacy Wichita SVP and market manager Becky Domyan says, “We are delighted to partner with K-STATE athletics and become the home of the University’s football and basketball programs. This partnership brings together a passion for sports and a commitment to delivering unparalleled coverage to Wildcat fans across the region. We look forward to capturing the electrifying moments and the shared spirit of K-STATE sports throughout the year.”

The GCN-syndicated “Dr. Daliah Wachs Show” is added to the weekend program schedule at Tyler Media’s KTLR-AM/K279CR, Oklahoma City.

Industry News

TALKERS News Notes

Heather Cohen, executive vice president of The Weiss Agency, is appointed president of the Hofstra Alumni Organization. Cohen says, “It is a privilege to continue serving the University that I am so proud of. In my new role as president, I look forward to working with the executive board, our incredible alumni, and the entire Hofstra family.”

The GCN-syndicated “Dr. Daliah Wachs” program is added to the program schedule at KGEZ-AM, Kalispell, Montana in the 9:00 pm to 12:00 midnight daypart.

Industry News

TALKERS News Notes

iHeartMedia, Inc will report its financial results for the quarter ending June 30, 2023 on Tuesday August 8. The company will conduct a conference call at 8:00 am ET, following the release of its earnings announcement to discuss its financial results and business outlook.

The GCN-syndicated “Dr. Daliah Wachs” show joins the program lineup at Alexandra Communications’ news/talk KUJ-AM/K254DK, Walla Walla, Washington in the late night daypart.

Mobile Radio Partners launches a sports betting format on WTOX-AM, Richmond, Virginia using content from VSiN, The Sports Betting Network. The station is being branded “Richmond’s Best Bet, 1480-The Line.” Station general manager Mark Smith comments, “The new format will bring 24-hour sports betting programming to Richmond for the first time. The new station leverages the growing interest in sports betting by covering all sports through the wagering lens. So many markets have embraced sports betting stations and it’s high time that Richmond started delivering the news and analysis folks need with best-in-class content from VSiN.”

NHPR names Travis Boucher chief financial officer. In this role with the public media organization, Boucher will oversee NHPR’s financial and compliance functions and be a strategic partner to NHPR’s board and senior leadership as the organization builds and deploys its resources over the coming years.

Industry News

Kevin McCullough to Debut “That Kevin Show”

WNYM-AM, New York evening host Kevin McCullough re-brands his Saturday evening “Radio Night LIVE” program as “THAT KEVIN SHOW.” McCullough says the new show is airing on Salem Media Group’s WNYMEASTGATE Berlin - Logo “AM 970 The Answer” and is available via Salem Radio Network, Salem News Channel, GCN, BizTV, BizTalkRadio, CRN Digital, and USA Radio. McCullough says, “Through much of the fall of 2022, we did a significant deep dive into not just how much content we were making every week but how it could be more impactful, and after lots of creative brainstorming, hard work and a significant investment in resources and time, the Saturday night program will show just the beginning of the efforts and results… I am also intensely grateful for Jerry Crowley, Phil Boyce, and Cary Pahigian, for challenging me consistently to continue to improve, grow, and reach!”

Front Page News Industry News

Friday, November 11, 2022

NOW POSTED: This Weekend’s Installment (Series Finale) of “The Michael Harrison Wrap: An Overview of the National Conversation.” The latest installment and series finale of the one-hour weekend special, “The Michael Harrison Wrap,” that has looked back each week for the past three-and-a-half years at the hottest topics discussed in the American talk media per the research of TALKERS, is now posted. This new episode titled, “A House Divided,” reviews this past week of 11/7-11. The program features guests (in order of appearance): Kevin Casey, executive editor, TALKERS; Dr. Murray Sabrin, professor emeritus of finance, Ramapo College, NJ; Harry Hurley, talk show host, WPG, Atlantic City, NJ; Victoria Jones, executive director, DC Radio Company; and Matthew B. HarrisonEsq., associate publisher, TALKERS/law professor, Springfield, MA. The show has been airing weekends (Friday evenings to Sunday nights) on 100-plus broadcast signals and networks across the U.S. and U.K as well as having developed a significant international following as a podcast. To listen to this week’s milestone episode, please click here. To view the latest TALKERS topic research, please click here.

LiveOne Reports Revenue for 2023 Fiscal Q2 Up 7.3%. Reporting its financial data for the second quarter of Fiscal 2023, LiveOne says consolidated revenue was $23.5 million – an increase of 7.3% over the same period in 2022 Fiscal Q2. LiveOne is the parent company of PodcastOne and the filing reveals that PodcastOne “posted record 1H Fiscal 2023 revenue of $17.2 million as U.S. unique monthly audience surpassed 6.7 million in September 2022.” LiveOne is planning to spin out PodcastOne as a separate, publicly traded company and expects to file an S-1 with the SEC by December 15. Returning to the company’s consolidated financial data, LiveOne posted a net loss of $3.4 million, a dramatic reduction from the net loss of $15.2 million it reported for second quarter of Fiscal 2022. LiveOne CEO and chairman Robert Ellin comments, “The momentum in LiveOne’s audio business, which includes Slacker Radio and PodcastOne, continues to experience growth of paid members through partnerships, including Tesla, as well as an increase in advertising and sponsorships. We expect our audio business to collectively achieve revenue in excess of $80 million in Fiscal 2023 and generate more than $16 million in Adjusted EBITDA. Over the past year, we have successfully reduced costs and overhead by an expected $25 million on an annual basis while focusing on the operating performance of our audio division. A significant part of our strategy is a decision to forgo any live tentpole and pay-per-view events until Fiscal 2024, which has resulted in a lowering of expected Fiscal 2023 revenue to between $100 million and $110 million. These measures will allow us to utilize our capital and resources to strengthen our balance sheet, buyback stock and focus on the growth of our profitable businesses.”

Christian Arcand Returns to WEEI, Boston to Produce PM Drive Show. Sports talk radio pro Christian Arcand – who was a casualty of the recent cuts at Beasley Media Group and served as an air personality at WBZ-FM, Boston “98.5 The Sports Hub” – joins Audacy’s WEEI-FM, Boston as producer of the “Merloni, Fauria & Mego” show and as host of the Saturday 1:00 pm to 4:00 pm program. Arcand originally served with WEEI first as co-host on the “Planet Mikey” show with Mike Adams and then hosted the “WEEI Late Night” program before joining WBZ-FM five years ago. Audacy Boston SVP and market manager Mike Thomas says, “Christian is a talented guy and a great team player. A lot of people in the building, including myself, have had the pleasure of working with him in the past. What he will bring to ‘Merloni, Fauria and Mego’ on and off the air will really help propel the show and the station forward.”

Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Host Election Event. Pictured above at Tuesday night’s midterm election night event in Nashville are Premiere Networks-syndicated personalities Clay Travis (right) and Buck Sexton (left) – hosts of “The Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Show” with U.S. Senator Marsha Blackburn (R-TN). Travis and Sexton hosted the event for key advertisers, political guests and others. Among the special guests who attended the private event to watch the election results were: Premiere Networks-syndicated personality Jesse Kelly, Sen. Bill Hagerty, Tennessee Attorney General Jonathan Skrmetti, FOX News commentator and Outkick The Coverage host Tomi Lahren, country music star John Rich, former NFL quarterback Jay Cutler, among others.

Hillsdale College Produces Election Night Coverage. In the photo above, student broadcasters at Hillsdale College’s radio station WRFH-LPFM, Hillsdale, Michigan “Radio Free Hillsdale 101.7 FM” present their live election night coverage on the station with a remote broadcast. The school says that more than 20 staffers were involved in some way during the evening, as they welcomed panels of fellow students, Hillsdale professors, candidates, reporters, and pundits to the airwaves. The event was open to the campus community and more than 200 people turned out to watch and listen.

KDWN, Las Vegas Hosts Election Night Special. In the Las Vegas market, KDWN talk host Steve Sanchez (right) presented election night coverage on the station that included contributions from GCN nationally syndicated talk host Dr. Daliah Wachs (center) and “Finding Common Ground” host Patrick Casale (left).

New York Festivals Welcomes Diego Cannizzaro to Radio Awards Advisory Board. The New York Festivals announces that DMC Studio owner Diego Cannizzaro is joining the NYF Radio Awards Advisory Board. New York Festivals Radio Awards vice president Rose Anderson says, “The 14-member Advisory Board panel is an international brain trust of innovative storytellers and industry executives whose expertise spans all genres of audio entertainment and journalism. Diego’s mastery of every aspect of his craft in works like ‘Madre’ and ‘Weightless’ brings emotions, memories, and sensations to his listening audiences. These insights and the Board’s essential guidance ensure that New York Festivals will continue to honor world-wide excellence across all platforms.” Cannizzaro’s DMC Studio is located in Buenos Aires and specializes in radio arts, sound stories, commercials, field recording, sound design and mixing. He is an industry pro known for award-winning work. He creates audiovisual productions for radio, TV, social networks, and movies. He comments, “I consider New York Festivals as an iconic common place, in a global level speaking. A meeting point for all who are really involved in storytelling in the media. Personally, it is an honor to be part of the Advisory Board with outstanding colleagues from all the media worldwide.”

NOT TOO LATE! Comrex Offers Talk Broadcasters Free Trial of Gagl Remote Contribution Service for Post-Election Programming. High-quality, remote contribution is a vital part of any live broadcast – and that’s especially true during election season. Comrex has provided talk radio hosts, reporters and sportscasters with great remote broadcasting tools for decades. Their Comrex ACCESS units have become a ubiquitous presence at political conventions, breaking news stories and anywhere broadcast-worthy things are happening. While Tuesday’s elections are in the rear-view mirror, post-election contribution to your station’s coverage of local and national races is still going strong and will for the foreseeable future. Those contributors need to be able to connect from remote locations at the drop of a hat. Often, reporters and contributors will call in from their remote locations on a mobile phone, which is a simple solution, but results in poor audio quality. Other reporters will have access to a remote audio codec, which provides excellent audio quality, but also requires some management from the engineering team. Gagl, the new remote contribution solution from Comrex, is the best of both worlds. According to the folks at Comrex, reporters and contributors can connect to the Gagl interface from a web browser on a smartphone or laptop, meaning it’s as easy as a phone call to get connected. Up to five reporters can be in a Gagl session at the same time. The Gagl session is connected to a Comrex IP audio codec in the studio, and so on-air hosts are able to talk with field reporters. Each reporter has their own mix-minus, and their audio is studio quality with very low delay, so quality isn’t sacrificed for simplicity. Gagl is a subscription-based service and it’s a first for Comrex. “It’s kind of a pivot for us,” Comrex director of sales, Chris Crump tells TALKERS. “Broadcasters are looking for easier, faster and less expensive ways to do their job. But quality and reliability are just as important,” says Crump. “Gagl uses a web browser on a smartphone or computer. It’s as easy as clicking a link to connect. But it connects to a Comrex IP Audio Codec back in the studio for reliability and greater stability. It sounds great and is designed to be dependable as Comrex customers would expect.” Anyone with an ACCESS or BRIC-Link codec can try Gagl free for two weeks by contacting Chris Crump at Comrex Corporation: Office phone: 978-784-1776. Mobil phone. 404-610-5954.

Politics and Midterm Elections Top News/Talk Story for Week of November 7 – 11, 2022. The politics surrounding the 2022 midterm elections and the races that will determine control of Congress for the next two years combined as the most-talked-about story on news/talk radio this week, landing atop the Talkers TenTM. At #2 this week was former President Donald Trump’s position as a Republican kingmaker and his expected announcement he’ll run for president in 2024, followed by inflation and fears of a recession at #3. The Takers TenTM is a weekly chart of the top stories and people discussed on news/talk radio during the week and is the result of ongoing research from TALKERS magazine. It is published every Friday at See this week’s complete chart here.



KWAM, Memphis Seeks News/Talk Morning Host. Memphis news/talk outlet KWAM-AM “The Mighty 990” is looking for the next great talk show host in America. We have an immediate opening for a morning show host. Our host must have at least three years experience and must be well-versed on national, Tennessee and Memphis news. Send resumes and audio clips to

Front Page News Industry News

Friday, October 21, 2022

NOW POSTED: This Weekend’s Installment of “The Michael Harrison Wrap: An Overview of the National Conversation.” The latest installment of the one-hour weekend special, “The Michael Harrison Wrap,” that looks back each week at the hottest topics discussed in American talk media per the research of TALKERS, is now posted. This new episode titled, “Inflation Inflammation,” looks back at this past week of 10/17-10/21. The program features guests (in order of appearance): Kevin Casey, executive editor, TALKERS; Victoria Jones, executive director, DC Radio CompanyJack Heath, talk show host, the Pulse of NHDom Giordano, talk show host, WPHT, Philadelphia; Jerry Reynolds, talk show host, CarPro Radio Network/WBAP, Dallas; and Matthew B. Harrison, Esq., associate publisher, TALKERS.  The show airs weekends (Friday evenings to Sunday nights) on 100-plus broadcast signals and networks across the U.S. and U.K as well as having developed a significant international following as a podcast. To listen to this week’s episode, please click here. To view the latest TALKERS topic research, please click here.

Wisconsin Talk Hosts Avoid Prosecution for Entering Locked State House. According to coverage from, charges against Michael Crute (left) and Dominic Salvia (right) – hosts of the progressive talk program, “The Devil’s Advocates Radio Show,” for entering the Wisconsin Capitol illegally on December 22 of 2020 are being dropped. Crute and Salvia’s program is heard in Milwaukee on Good Karma Brands’ WAUK-AM/W266DR, on WTTN-AM/W224EG in Madison and other Wisconsin signals. The duo, along with producer Bryan Kelly, accessed the locked Capitol during the pandemic lockdown to “put up a Christmas tree that included ornaments lampooning Republican lawmakers after Republican state Reps. Paul Tittl and Shae Sortwell and others put up their own tree in the Capitol rotunda and held other activities without a permit because Democratic Gov. Tony Evers had decided not to put up a tree during the pandemic.” Crute, Salvia and Kelly’s lawyer told the program’s listeners that his defensive strategy “was going to be the defense of selective prosecution” on the part of the district attorney. In the end it didn’t matter because ultimately the prosecution “did not feel at this time in the interest of justice jury trials in these matters was warranted.”

Salem Announces Midterm Election Coverage. The company says that its coverage of the November midterm elections will begin on Tuesday (11/8) at 7:00 pm ET and run through 2:00 am the next morning. Salem Media Group says that the Salem Radio Network will join forces with the new Salem News Channel platform to provide marathon “DECISION 22” Midterm Election coverage focusing on the battle over which political party will gain control of the U.S. Senate and U.S. House of Representatives for the next two years. “DECISION 22” will also track election results in hotly contested races for governor from coast-to-coast. SRN VP/news & talk programming Tom Tradup states, “This promises to be quite very possibly the most historic Midterm election and it will offer our audiences the first ever live broadcast partnership between our ground-breaking Salem News Channel and the Salem Radio Network nationwide.” For the first five hours starting at 7:00 pm ET, SNC’s Andrew Wilkow and SRN’s nationally syndicated talk hosts Hugh Hewitt and Dr. Sebastian Gorka will anchor the live coverage that will include perspective and analysis from invited guests including SRN hosts Mike Gallagher and Brandon Tatum live from midterm “watch parties.” Correspondents updating key races will include Chris Stigall of “AM990 The Answer” in Philadelphia covering the pivotal Pennsylvania U.S. Senate contest. SRN News White House correspondent Greg Clugston will provide breaking news throughout the evening from the Decision Desk in the Washington bureau. At 12:00 midnight ET coverage switches to the Los Angeles studios of Salem’s “870AM The ANSWER” for continuing coverage anchored by Jennifer Horn (host of The Morning Answer of KRLA and KTIE) and KRLA news anchor Larry Marino.

Mike Miller Named VP of Programming for iHeartMedia Central PA. Radio programming pro Mike Miller is named vice president of programming for iHeartMedia’s Central PA stations that include news/talk WHP-AM and sports talk WTKT-AM “FOX Sports 1460” in Harrisburg, as well as five music brands. iHeartMedia national programming group EVP Jeff Hurley comments, “Mike brings an unparalleled understanding of our business and operations. His track record of innovation speaks for itself. He has created and grown unique brands from the ground up for over 20 years in Central PA. We’re excited to welcome Mike back to our programming team, where he got his first start on ‘FM97’ in Lancaster at age 16.”

Broadcasters Foundation of America Lauded for Hurricane Assistance. After hurricanes swept through Puerto Rico and Southwest Florida, those working in the broadcasting business in the those areas have had to deal with personal and family issues in addition to having to keep up their  professional duties to keep the public informed and apprised of everything that is happening in clean-up efforts. At best, it has been difficult for those in the broadcast community to continue working while also dealing with damage to their property or automobiles. At worst, they may be dealing with something such as injury to a family member or pet. While there is certainly no way to replace something as precious as life, the Broadcasters Foundation of America has stepped in to provide some financial security to those colleagues who are suffering from these natural disasters. Dozens of employees from various radio and television companies in those areas have reached out for help and the BFOA has either already delivered or is in the process of providing financial support. Beasley Media Group CEO Caroline Beasley says, “Hurricane Ian was one of the worst natural disasters to hit Southwest Florida in over a century. A near category 5 hurricane, the storm devastated communities that Beasley serves. Our employees worked around the clock, serving as a lifeline to listeners when radio was the only source of communication available to them with the outside world. Throughout the storm, Tim McCarthy and the Broadcasters Foundation of America team were front and center, checking in and offering assistance to our employees who were directly impacted by the hurricane. It’s that type of true commitment and dedication to broadcasters on the front lines every day that makes the BFOA so incredibly important and vital as they take care of those who selflessly take care of others every day. That is what the Broadcasters Foundation of America is all about!”

TALKERS News Notes. A new deal between SiriusXM and New York Times bestselling author Rachel Hollis gives SXM the exclusive rights to distribute and sell advertising for “The Rachel Hollis Podcast.” Additionally, the agreement calls for Stitcher to distribute the show across all podcast platforms. Hollis says, “Teaming up with SiriusXM allows us to further elevate the show, bringing it into an exciting new chapter. I believe we learn the most by listening to other people’s stories and sharing in conversation. My hope is to keep seeking out wisdom from our guests that spark curiosity and openness with an ever-evolving audience.”…..Salem Media Group is presenting at the Annual LD Micro Main Event XV investor conference at 5:00 pm ET on October 26. The presentation will be available on the investor relations portion of Salem’s website prior to the company’s presentation…..Dr. Daliah WachsGCN-syndicated talk radio program adds a new affiliate as Fairview Broadcasting’s news/talk KWBG-AM, Boone, Iowa adds the show to its program schedule in the 6:00 pm to 9:00 pm daypart.

Politics and the Midterm Elections Top News/Talk Story for Week of October 17-21. The politics and the debates leading up to the November midterm elections combined as the most-talked-about-stories on news/talk radio this week, landing atop the Takers TenTM. At #2 this week was the economy – including inflation, the up-and-down financial markets, and fears of a recession – followed by the ongoing Russian invasion of Ukraine tied with other foreign affairs stories at #3. The Talkers TenTM is a weekly chart of the top stories and people discussed on news/talk radio during the week and is the result of ongoing research from TALKERS magazine. It is published every Friday at See this week’s complete chart here.