Category: Industry News

The West Coast’s highly popular talk radio “power couple,” Robin Bertolucci and her husband Don Martin have stepped away from their longtime positions with iHeartMedia (11/8) – Bertolucci as program director of heritage giant KFI AM 640, Los Angeles and Martin as EVP of programming, iHeartMedia Sports (which includes FOX Sports Radio) and PD of sports talk AM 570 KLAC, Los Angeles.After nearly a quarter century of exemplary service in these positions, the ambiguous terms cited for the couple’s simultaneous departure do not mask the general industry observation that they were direct victims of the national radio cutbacks being affected by iHeartMedia as severe cost-cutting measures.  Chris Berry, iHeartMedia EVP of news, will assume the role as interim program director of both KFI and KLAC.

In the New York City market, the morning team of generalist Michael Riedel and sports talker Len Berman has met a similar fate at the legendary AM 710 WOR. Included in the cut – their show’s producer Terry Trahim, after more than 20 years of service to the station.

Multi-talented Scott Sands, iHM SVP of programming for the Ohio-West Virginia area and PD /afternoon host of WSPD, Toledo has also been let go.

Joe Pags impacted. In San Antonio, although he remains one of the most successful syndicated hosts in American talk radio with a rapidly growing roster of more than 170 stations coast to coast, Compass Media Networks star Joe “Pags” Pagliarulo‘s local highly-rated afternoon show of 19 years at his flagship WOAI (where he is a market legend) has been dropped from the lineup as a cost-cutting measure. Pags is one of talk radio’s most notable rising stars and will undoubtedly be okay – but his departure from WOAI is indicative of the wrecking ball nature of these types of budget-cutting measures.

There are more cutbacks being reported at iHM stations throughout the industry.

TALKERS publisher Michael Harrison states, “It is a dark moment in talk radio when the cutback ax falls on such good people who have devoted so much precious time, talent, and loyalty to their company, this industry and our professional community.  I’m in no position to tell companies how to run their businesses and protect their embattled assets in times of financial distress… but on a human level – not to mention in recognition of the fragility of this historic cultural scene to which we all contribute and hold an emotional stake – it’s downright heartbreaking.”

To see a recent interview with Joe Pags conducted by Michael Harrison on the video podcast “Up Close Far Out,” please click here.

iHeartMedia announced today (11/11) that Lisa DiMartini has been appointed market president for the Allentown and Reading markets, effective immediately. The iHeartMedia Allentown and Reading markets include seven iconic station brands across both broadcast and digital formats, offering a diverse lineup of music, talk and news programming. In her new role, DiMartini will oversee sales, programing, promotions, and operations for both the Allentown and Reading markets. She will report to Brit Goldstein, president of the iHeartMedia Mid-Atlantic area.  “Lisa is the consummate professional –  unflappable, positive, and centered.  She has rejuvenated the Allentown market with her unique approach to fostering culture and partnerships,” said Goldstein.  “I’m very excited to see Lisa apply her business principles to the Reading market and beyond.” DiMartini most recently served as the VP of sales for iHeartMedia Allentown, where she played a pivotal role in driving growth and fostering innovation. Prior to that, she served successfully as account executive for iHeart Allentown. Her career began at The Morning Call in Allentown and she is a graduate of Millersville University.  “I am honored to expand my role to lead both the Allentown and Reading markets,” DiMartini tells TALKERS.  “I look forward to working with the talented teams in both locations to drive continued success and growth while delivering value to our partners and listeners.”

The aftermath of the presidential election dominated this past weekend’s talk media discussions (11/9-10), highlighted by buzz over potential appointments to positions of power in the forthcoming Trump Administration and followed by an abundance of “Monday Morning Quarterbacking” about why the election went the way it did. Speculation over the coming massive migrant deportation was the top story along with interest on how the new administration will impact the wars in the Middle East and Central Europe.  Other topics in the mix were the economy, and talk of Donald Trump’s plan to put Elon Musk and Robert Kennedy Jr. in positions of influence in his administration according to ongoing research from TALKERS.

iHeartMedia announced today (11/8) that Steve DeLusant has been named region president for the New York market and Adam Kurtz region president for the Chicago market, effective immediately. DeLusant and Kurtz will report to Bernie Weiss, division president, iHeartMedia.  DeLusant and Kurtz will be responsible for managing multiple platforms across New York and Chicago iHeartMedia brands. In these newly appointed positions, both region presidents will work closely with the sales, programming and digital teams for all station brands in the New York and Chicago markets and will also have direct oversight of the respective sales teams.  “I’m thrilled to promote both Steve and Adam. It’s especially rewarding to find the best candidates for key leadership roles in your own buildings,” Weiss tells TALKERS. “They’re extremely knowledgeable about our ever-evolving business and have built some of the best media sales teams in the country. I’m confident that they will continue to elevate our New York and Chicago operations to even greater heights and continue to drive revenue.” Prior to his new role, Steve DeLusant has held the position of SVP of sales for iHeart New York since January 2020.  Earlier in his career, DeLusant was senior account executive for Emmis Communications and a sales associate for WLTW.  Adam Kurtz is a seasoned media veteran with 23 years of sales experience at iHeartMedia including 14 years in sales management.  Kurtz began his media career at WLIT in Chicago where he was an account executive for nine years.

Yesterday afternoon (11/7) syndicated talk show host Erick Erickson partnered with 102.3 KRMG  (KRMG-FM) for a listener event in Tulsa, OK. The casual and intimate meet and greet experience was held at the We Street Ice Center and was open to KRMG listeners and Erickson fans. Leading up to the event, listeners had an opportunity to submit questions for Erickson to address during the event.  He touched on some of the questions before taking pictures and interacting with listeners. “This was a great opportunity to get to Oklahoma.  Working with all my affiliates to be present and local with them is a core part of how I do radio,” Erickson tells TALKERS.  “KRMG turned out a giant crowd and, just after this election outcome, it made for a great time.”  The KRMG Erick Erickson Experience brought in about 300 people.  “The turnout at an event like this shows the influence Erick Erickson has in our market and we are thrilled to be able to offer this one-of-a-kind experience to our listeners,” says Levi May, KRMG director of branding and programming.  Erickson broadcasts on KRMG weekdays 11:00 am – 2:00 pm. Learn more at krmg.com.

The lead up to Election Day and its aftermath dominated all news/talk media platforms this week including a rehash of the key issues of this cycle: Election Postmortem; Economy; Migrant-Border Crisis; Abortion / Health Care; Russia-Ukraine War; Middle East Violence; Climate Change / Race Relations /Gender Relations; Big Tech / Media Corruption-Bias; and Crime / Homelessness.  To see the complete chart of the most talked about stories and people, please click here.

Journalism is alive and well within certain college radio circles. On Election Night (11/5), the WRFH/Radio Free Hillsdale 101.7 FM student broadcast team hosted live coverage from the Searle Center on Hillsdale College’s campus in Hillsdale, MI and invited students, faculty, and staff to attend and watch election results roll in and listen to analysis. Student anchors were joined by the presidents of Hillsdale College Republicans and Hillsdale College Democrats, three members of the Hillsdale faculty, a candidate for the Michigan State House, a candidate for the Michigan Supreme Court, and reporters from the Detroit News, the Daily Caller, the Center Square, and the Daily Signal. Back at the WRFH studios, the station’s news team worked to update listeners with results from state and local races all night long. More than 200 people came out to the broadcast in action. WRFH GM Scot Bertram tells TALKERS, “It was a home-run event!  Students work hard to prep for this quite unpredictable night. There’s an enormous amount of planning and research involved to set everything up. Then the night unfolds, and they realize it’s a ton of fun, as well. I’ve heard from more than a few students who took part in our previous Election Night events that it’s one of their best experiences on campus and really drew them deeper into the journalism program here at Hillsdale.”

BFoA Launches Annual Year-End Giving Campaign For Donations to Help Colleagues in Need.  The Broadcasters Foundation of America has launched its annual Year-End Giving Campaign, which seeks to raise donations from tax-deductible personal contributions to the Guardian Fund and corporate contributions to the Angel Initiative. The Broadcasters Foundation, a 501c3 charity, is the only charity devoted exclusively to helping colleagues who are in dire need of monthly or emergency financial assistance due to life-altering illness or a disaster. “We are devoted exclusively to providing aid to colleagues in broadcasting who are suffering from extreme illness, or hardship from a devastating disaster,” stated Tim McCarthy, president of the Broadcasters Foundation. “We also take care of colleagues who have retired. Grants are supported solely by contributions from individuals and companies within our industry and offer a ‘hand-up’ to our colleagues during trying times. We’re asking everyone in broadcasting to please consider including the Broadcasters Foundation in your 2024 charitable giving.”  Over the past 20 years, the Broadcasters Foundation has distributed over $15 million in aid to colleagues nationwide, across all states and territories, who need it most. “Requests for aid continue to grow exponentially as more of our peers and their families are affected by severe illness or disasters, such as the recent flurry of destructive hurricanes,” explained Scott Herman, chairman of the Broadcasters Foundation. “Whether it’s a monthly grant or one-time aid in response to an emergency, the Broadcasters Foundation is often a refuge and beacon of hope for colleagues whose lives have been upended by unforeseen and tragic circumstances. Please consider a donation. Donations go directly to helping our colleagues who are in desperate need.”  For more information about the Broadcasters Foundation, including how to apply for aid or make a donation, visit www.broadcastersfoundation.org, or contact 212-373-8250 or info@thebfoa.org.

Benztown, a global leader specializing in radio imaging, voiceover, programming, podcasting and jingles, announces the release today (11/7) of two new episodes of its series “Chachi Loves Everybody,” an original podcast hosted by its president Dave “Chachi” Denes. These episodes feature Chachi’s special guests Al Roker, longtime weatherman on NBC’s The Today Show and co-anchor of the iconic morning show’s third hour, and Patsy Smullin, owner/president of California Oregon Broadcasting, and host of the successful television interview series, Up Close and Personal.  Roker and Smullin will be among those honored next week as Giants of Broadcasting by the Library of American Broadcasting Foundation at the 2024 Giants of Broadcasting & Electronic Arts luncheon and awards ceremony. The event will be held on Tuesday, November 12th at Gotham Hall in New York City.  To listen to these new “Chachi Loves Everybody” podcast episodes, please click here. For more information about the 2024 Giants of Broadcasting & Electronic Arts luncheon and awards ceremony, and for a full list of honorees, please click here.

ELECTION POST MORTEM:  “Monday Morning Quarterback” analysis of the presidential election was dominant on the top talk media stories list yesterday (11/7) as the dust slowly settles on an industry that just ran a marathon.  Other top issues of discussion emanating from that included abortion rights, the economy, media bias, war and rising tensions in the Middle East and Central Europe, and the ever-present migrant/border crisis according to ongoing TALKERS research.

The New York Post is reporting that iHeartMedia has cut “hundreds” of jobs in a move executed on Monday (11/4). The Post writes, “The company headed by CEO Bob Pittman has cut less than 5% of a workforce of more than 10,000 employees, a source with knowledge said, amounting to hundreds of job losses as the company streamlines its business and eliminates redundancies. The story also quotes iHeartMedia spokesperson Wendy Goldberg, saying the company has focused on expanding its Gen Z audience and that its broadcast radio audience has “more listeners than it did 10 years ago. Although in a company of 10,000 people very few jobs have been affected, there have been some and we never take this step lightly no matter how few jobs it entails; every team member is important to us and has our respect and appreciation.” Read the Post story here.

In an example of just how contentious sports talk radio can be, long-time Boston sports talk radio host Fred Toucher did not hold back in slamming his old partner, Rich Shertenlieb, whose new show was cancelled this week. Toucher, who now co-hosts “Toucher & Hardy“ on 98.5 The Sports Hub, WBZ-FM, Boston took some time on this morning’s show (11/5) to address ”the elephant in the room.” Shertenlieb‘s new show on local classic rock outlet WZLX had been canceled after five months, and Toucher didn’t seem to have any sympathy for his former partner.  In a story by reporter Nick O’ Malley posted on the news site MassLive.com, “I hate him,” Toucher said. “So, I was happy yesterday when I heard about this. But I was a little disheartened that he still carries none of the responsibility and takes none of the blame and still just can’t be honest.”   Toucher and Shertenlieb co-hosted the “Toucher & Rich” show from 2009-2023, working together to produce one of Boston’s most popular morning shows. However, the show ran into issues in 2023. Toucher missed time due to personal and physical issues, including a stretch of time at an alcohol detox facility. In November, parent company Beasley Media said in a statement that Shertenlieb declined to accept a new contract.  On Monday, Shertenlieb announced that he was “disappointed” that his show was being canceled after just five months. The radio host complained that management forced him to “alter the format” of the show by adding music.  However, Toucher noted Tuesday that Shertenlieb’s show was a “ratings disaster.”  “He not only did not bring in a new audience to that show, he alienated – based on ratings – their entire existing audience,” Toucher said. “He had like a third of the ratings that they got jockless in the morning … Yeah, management might have been a little concerned.”  Toucher said that critics can paint the picture of his reaction however they like. But he did note that he and co-host Jon Wallach say they weren’t alone in celebrating the demise of Shertenlieb’s show.  To see the complete article in MassLive.com, please click here.

HRN Hispanic Radio Network Responds to Advertisers Creates “The Influencer Radio Network.” HRN, the highly Nielsen-Rated Hispanic Radio Network, has created “The Influencer Network” to help advertisers connect with Hispanic communities across the U.S. The Influencer Network leverages the growing impact of HRN’s syndicated personalities on their radio listeners and social media followers.  “Radio personalities are the original influencers” says Clark Logan, President of HRN. “Fernando Fiore (a.k.a. Mr. Soccer), Ana Maria Canseco, Riva, (Los 40 USA) and DJ Xtreme are great talents. Their audiences on air and online identify with them while listening to their shows and reading the social posts in a lean-forward fashion. Brands can use association with these influencers to increase awareness and favorability of their brands with consumers.” For more information on the HRN Hispanic Radio Network, contact Clark Logan at Clark.Logan@genmediapartners.com for advertising and Jimmy Perez at jimmy.perez@genmediapartners.com for affiliations.

Austin’s KUT News and KUTX 98.9 GM Debbie Hiott Elected to the NPR Board of Directors. KUT/KUTX, Austin GM Debbie Hiott has been elected to the NPR Board of Directors by NPR member station peers from across the country. Her term began yesterday (11/4) and runs through 2027. “It felt important to have a seat at the table at a critical time for NPR as it determines how to address challenging audience and underwriting trends, and how it will handle relationships with member stations,” said Hiott. “NPR’s health is our health, and vice versa. It’s important that the member stations and NPR work together on solutions to our audience and revenue challenges. I’m hoping I can help contribute to those solutions.”

POLLS AND PREDICTIONS:  The presidential race was supremely dominant on the top talk media stories list yesterday (11/4) on Election Eve.  Conversation focused primarily on polls and predictions.  Other top issues of discussion emanating from that included abortion rights, the economy, media bias, war and rising tensions in the Middle East and Central Europe, and the ever-present migrant/border crisis according to ongoing TALKERS research.

According to an article published yesterday (11/3) in The New York Times written by reporter Andrew Higgins, when a state-funded Polish radio station canceled a weekly show featuring interviews with theater directors and writers, the host of the program went quietly, resigned to media industry realities of cost-cutting and shifting tastes away from highbrow culture. But his resignation turned to fury in late October after his former employer, Off Radio Krakow, aired what it billed as a “unique interview” with an icon of Polish culture, Wislawa Szymborska, the winner of the 1996 Nobel Prize for Literature. The terminated radio host, Lukasz Zaleski, said he would have invited Szymborska on his morning show himself, but never did for a simple reason: She died in 2012. The station used artificial intelligence to generate the recent interview – a dramatic and, to many, outrageous example of technology replacing humans, even dead ones. Zaleski conceded that the computer-generated version of the poet’s distinctive voice was convincing. “It was very, very good,” he said, but “I went to her funeral, so I know for sure that she is dead. ”The technology-enabled resurrection of the dead poet was part of a novel experiment by Off Radio Krakow, an arm of Poland’s public broadcasting system in the southern city of Krakow. The aim was to test whether A.I. could revive a moribund local station that had “close to zero” listeners, according to the head of public radio in Krakow. The station also planned from-the-grave interviews with other dead people, including Jozef Pilsudski, Poland’s leader when it regained its independence in 1918. Novelty value – and a storm of public outrage – worked to bolster Off Radio Krakow’s audience, which the head of Radio Krakow said grew to 8,000 overnight from just a handful of people after the introduction of three A.I.-generated Generation Z presenters – Emilia, 20, Jakub, 22, and Alex, 23, each of whom had a computer-generated photograph and biography on the station’s website. Less welcome than the audience surge, however, has been a barrage of abuse directed at the public broadcasting system and accusations that it was sacrificing humans on the altar of technology.  To read the entire article published yesterday in The New York Times, please click here.

Audacy names Jonathan Peterlin (pictured above right) as afternoon show co-host on 92.3 The Fan (WKRK-FM) in Cleveland. Peterlin will join co-host Nick Wilson (above left) and be heard weekdays from 2:00 to 7:00 pm ET. Peterlin had previously served as the station’s evening host since 2022.  “We believe Jonathan’s addition and presence on the show will bring a unique passion and energy to afternoon drive,” said Keith Britton, the station’s brand manager. “He has shown both the ability and readiness for this move and we are full speed ahead in our commitment to providing our listeners with the most engaging sports talk and entertainment on a daily basis.”  “92.3 The Fan and its listeners have been with me through every major chapter of my life, and this station has been a constant presence in my world,” said Peterlin. “Afternoon drive in Cleveland is the pinnacle of what I’ve always aspired to, and I truly couldn’t imagine a better person to share this journey with than my good friend, Nick Wilson. I’m extremely thankful for the chance to continue this journey with the listeners and the team at 92.3 The Fan.”

The presidential race dominated the weekend talk media discussions (11/2-3), highlighted by each candidate’s “closing case.” VP Kamala Harris‘s appearance on SNL got a buzz as did NBC’s response to backlash with an offer of equal time to former President Donald Trump. Women’s health issues and abortion rights were dominant topics. This was followed by fear of escalating violence in Central Europe and the Middle East. Other topics in the mix were the economy, the migrant crisis, and talk of Trump’s plan to put Elon Musk and Robert Kennedy Jr. in positions of influence in his administration according to ongoing research from TALKERS.

TALKERS Heavy Hundred radio star Larry O’Connor just wrapped up nearly two weeks of shows from the WRFH studios on the campus of Hillsdale College in Hillsdale, Michigan. He hosted his “O’Connor & Company” morning program on Newstalk 105.9 WMAL in Washington, DC, as he served as Eugene C. Pulliam Distinguished Fellow in Journalism. Larry also produced his daily Townhall streaming show “LARRY” from the complex. While at Hillsdale, he taught a one-credit class for its journalism students, “Broadcasting and Podcasting,” and also delivered a public lecture entitled “The Media and the 2024 Election.” Video of that lecture can be found here.  Scot Bertram, general manager, WRFH/Radio Free Hillsdale 101.7 FM tells TALKERS, “I was happy to play a small role in making this incredible show happen every day for listeners in our nation’s capital and around the country. It was a real pleasure to watch this well-oiled machine operate, led by Larry, executive producer Heather Hunter, and technical producer Michael Shelton. Our journalism students learned a lot from observing these shows and having the opportunity to talk with Larry and receive in-person advice.”  Pictured above: Larry O’ Connor (l) and Scot Bertram (r) at Hillsdale. (Photo by Austin Thomason.)

WURD Radio Endorses Kamala Harris for President.  For the first time in its 20+ year history, Philadelphia’s only Black-owned radio station, WURD Radio has endorsed a political candidate — Kamala Harris for President of the United States. Prompted in part by the decision from owners of the Los Angeles Times and The Washington Post to overrule planned endorsements by their editorial boards, sources at the station tell TALKERS, this decision underscores the importance of independent media ownership. From the endorsement: “Our founder, Walter P. Lomax Jr., M.D., understood that the media has the power to shape perceptions, images, narratives and, most importantly in this election, to tell the truth. He understood that the media can demonize or humanize, destroy or exalt, diminish or elevate. Dr. Lomax knew that mainstream media often marginalizes, caricatures and maligns Black people. WURD is in a unique position to speak honestly and emphatically about what matters most to our community because we are independently owned.”  To read the entire text of the endorsement, please click here.

SiriusXM Tips Off College Basketball Coverage with 74 Games on Opening Night, November 4.  SiriusXM will deliver college basketball fans an extensive schedule of live games throughout the 2023-24 college basketball season, starting with a slate of 74 women’s and men’s matchups to choose from when the season tips off this Monday (11/4).  The men’s schedule includes all 19 teams from the Associated Press Top 25 that are in action on Monday night, including the season’s first matchup of Top 25 ranked teams – #8 Baylor @ #6 Gonzaga (11:30 pm ET). The opening day schedule of women’s games on SiriusXM includes 12 teams from the Associated Press Top 25 and features a couple of Top 25 matchups – #20 Ole Miss @ #3 USC (noon ET) and #5 UCLA @ #17 Louisville (2:30 pm ET).  Throughout the season SiriusXM listeners will get access to dozens of game broadcasts each week involving teams from the SEC, Big Ten, Big 12, ACC, Pac-12, Big East and more.

Newsmax Launches in France on Molotov.  Newsmax TV, one of America’s most popular news channels, just launched on Molotov, one of France’s leading TV platforms, as U.S. voters go to the polls to pick their next president.  The Newsmax channel went live on Molotov’s platform on October 24, 2024, expanding its global footprint with 19 million Molotov users in France and French-speaking territories.  Molotov is one of France’s main TV services offering streaming television to internet users across the nation and its territories. Molotov subscribers can tune to Newsmax via the platform’s free tier.

It was a power-packed stretch (10/28-11/1) as Election Day rapidly approached less than a week away. The presidential race highlighted by continuing talk about the MSG MAGA event and “garbage” talk emanating from both sides consumed the airwaves and talk media programs on all platforms.  Hot topics included: migrant-border issues; the economy-inflation-tariffs-housing; abortion-healthcare-climate change- race relations; Middle East and Central Europe war-violence; Elon Musk activities- big tech-media corruption-bias; crime-guns; Halloween; and the World Series. To see the complete chart of the most talked about stories and people, please click here.

Cumulus Media Inc. today (11/4) announced operating results for the three and nine months ended September 30, 2024. Mary G. Berner, president and CEO of Cumulus Media, said, “During the third quarter, we delivered revenue and EBITDA in-line with pacing commentary and analyst estimates. Given the market challenges, we maintained our focus on what we can control. Specifically, we continued investing to drive growth in our digital businesses, including in digital marketing services which increased revenue nearly 40% in the quarter; capitalizing on areas of improvement in national and political ad spending; maximizing operating cash flow; and improving operating leverage through ongoing expense reductions.” Berner continued, “Looking forward, the advertising environment remains uncertain. Nonetheless, Cumulus has a valuable set of assets with which to navigate that uncertainty including: profitable and fast-growing digital businesses; a vast national platform that can reach audiences whenever and wherever they choose to listen; extensive feet-on-the-street local sales capabilities which allow us to walk product through the door; premium programming with particular strength in sports and news/talk; an extensive untapped audio library; and a leadership team with a strong track record of expense management and disciplined stewardship of capital. As we continue to execute against our priorities, we see many paths for leveraging these assets to maximize the value they produce for our shareholders.”

Q3 Key Highlights:

• Posted total net revenue of $203.6 million, a decline of 1.8% year-over-year

• Generated digital revenue of $40.0 million, up 7.5% year-over-year

     • Grew digital marketing services by 38% driven by an increase in new customers, improved customer retention and higher average order size

     •  Increased number of radio-only customers who also bought digital marketing services by 32% year-over-year

     •  Increased digital revenue to 20% of total company revenue

•  Recorded net loss of $10.3 million compared to net income of $2.7 million in Q3 2023 and Adjusted EBITDA(1) of $24.1 million compared to $26.9 million in Q3 2023

•  Generated $3.9 million of cash from operations 1

•  Reported total debt of $673.0 million, total debt at maturity of $642.1 million, and net debt less total unamortized discount of $590.0 million at September 30, 2024, including total debt due in 2026 of $23.9 million.

For further information and the full report, please contact: Cumulus Media Inc. Investor Relations Department IR@cumulus.com 404-260-6600.

The presidential race remained dominant on top of the stories list yesterday (10/30) as Election Day rapidly approaches.  Conversation included a continuing rehashing of last Sunday’s controversial MAGA rally at MSG with a huge focus on the comments/fallout from the Puerto Rican community and President Joe Biden‘s controversial remark about former President Donald Trump‘s supporters being “garbage.”  VP Kamala Harris‘s speech in DC, continued to be among the most-talked-about election stories in news/talk media yesterday (10/30).  Other top issues of discussion included the economy, media bias, rising tensions in the Middle East and Central Europe, the migrant crisis, and the World Series according to ongoing TALKERS research.