Industry News

Neuhoff Media Closes on Sale of Illinois Stations

Neuhoff Media closes on the sale of three stations and an FM translator in Danville, Illinois; four stationsim and a translator in Decatur, Illinois; and an FM station in Monticello, Illinois to Champaign Multimedia Group, LLC, an Illinois-based company headed by Larry Perrotto. The transaction also included two websites – vermilioncountyfirst.com and nowdecatur.com.

Industry News

Top News/Talk Media Stories for Week of May 6 – 10

The Donald Trump “hush money” trial in New York was the most-talked-about story in news/talk media this week, landing atop the Talkers TenTM. At #2 this week was the pro-Palestinian protests on U.S. college campuses, followed by the U.S.-Israel weapons deal at #3. The Talkers TenTM is a weekly chart of the top stories and people discussed in news/talk media during the week and was the result of ongoing research from TALKERS. See this week’s complete chart here.

Industry News

iHeartMedia First Quarter Revenue Dips 1.5%

iHeartMedia reports that its revenue for the first quarter of 2024 was $799 million, a decline of 1.5% from the same period in 2023, and in line with the company’s guidance. The company posts a net loss of $18.1 million, a dramatic reduction from the $222 million loss it reported in Q1 of 2023. The company’s Broadcast Radio segment revenue was $359.3 million, a decline of 6.2% from Q1 2023 and networksim revenue was $102 million, down 5.5% from the same period a year ago. The company’s Digital Audio Group revenue was $239 million, up 7% over Q1 2023. Breaking that segment down, Digital (excluding Podcast) revenue was $148.3 million (up 1.2%), and Podcast revenue was $90.6 million (up 18%). iHeartMedia chairman and CEO Bob Pittman says, “We’re pleased to report our first quarter of year-over-year Adjusted EBITDA growth in five quarters, driven by the substantial sequential year-over-year improvement in the performance of all our segments: the Multiplatform Group, the Digital Audio Group, and the Audio and Media Services Group – with the Digital Audio Group hitting its best Q1 EBITDA margin ever. Additionally, our Q1 results were in line with our previously provided Adjusted EBITDA and Revenue guidance ranges. Although the marketplace continues to be dynamic, we continue to see meaningful opportunities for growth in our businesses and we remain confident in 2024 as a recovery year.”

Industry News

Townsquare Media’s Q1 2024 Revenue Declines 3.4%

First quarter 2024 net revenue for Townsquare Media was $99.6 million, down 3.4% from the same period in 2023. The company posted net income of $1.55 million in Q1, compared to the net loss of $1.94 million it reported in the first quarter of 2023. Townsquare’s Subscription Digital Marketing Solutions net revenue was $18.2 million, down 15.3% from a year ago. Digital Advertising net revenueim was $34.1 million, up 1.3% over Q1 of 2023. Broadcast Advertising net revenue was $45.5 million, down just 1% from a year ago. Townsquare CEO Bill Wilson comments, “I am pleased to share that Townsquare’s first quarter results met our previously issued guidance, and that we are building momentum and gaining market share, primarily due to our local focus and our unique and differentiated digital platform… Our first imquarter performance improved over the fourth quarter across each of our segments. Importantly, our Digital Advertising segment returned to revenue growth in the first quarter (+1.3% year-over-year), and our Townsquare Interactive segment achieved net subscriber growth and month-over-month revenue growth in March, a meaningful turning point for the business. In total, Digital represented 53% of Townsquare’s first quarter 2024 net revenue and Adjusted Operating Income. The strong cash generation characteristics of our assets provided us the ability to execute two attractive equity transactions in April using cash on hand: the accretive share repurchase of 1.5 million shares from MSG at an 11% discount to the pre-announcement share price, and an option buyout at an attractive price point, thereby avoiding shareholder dilution. In addition, during the quarter we repurchased $4 million of our common stock and paid a high-yielding dividend while also investing in our business. We ended the quarter with a strong cash balance of $57 million, and following the April equity transactions, maintained a cash balance of $28 million at the end of April, retaining financial flexibility moving forward.”

Industry News

Saga Communications’ Q1 Revenue Falls 2.5%

First quarter 2024 operating results for Saga Communications reveal net revenue of $24.7 million, a decline of 2.5% from the first quarter of 2023. The company reports a net loss of $1.6 million during theim first quarter compared to the net income of $920,000 it reported in Q1 of 2023. Saga adds that its balance sheet reflects $28.8 million in cash and short-term investments as of March 31, 2024 and $23.7 million as of May 6, 2024. The company expects to spend approximately $5.0 – $5.5 million for capital expenditures during 2024.

Industry News

Talk Host Pat Egan Exits WPEN-FM, Philadelphia

Sports talk host Pat Egan is another victim of budget cuts at Beasley Media Group sports talker WPENim-FM, Philadelphia “97.5 The Fanatic.” Egan posted confirmation of his exit on X, saying, “So last night I got laid off from the Fanatic. I figured it was coming when I heard there were cuts, & the writing was on the wall when I got moved to nights.” As Crossing Broad notes, “Egan was one of the longest-tenured employees remaining at the station. He began as an intern in 2011 and then became a street teamer and producer.” Read the Crossing Broad story here.

Industry News

Howard Eskin Receives Honorary Doctorate

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Pictured above is Philadelphia sports media personality and longtime “SportsRadio 94 WIP” sportscaster Howard Eskin(right) receiving an honorary doctorate from Goldey-Beacom College in Wilmington, Delaware from school president Dr. Colleen Perry Keith (left). Eskin delivered the school’s commencement address at its graduation ceremony on May 3.

Industry News

Veteran Music Industry and Rock Radio Figures Set to Gather in LA for Ninth Annual Reunion

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In what has become somewhat of an informal annual tradition, on May 22, 2024, music industry and rock radio veterans from across the nation will come together at the Ninth Annual Music Industry Reunion. The event will take place at the legendary live music venue, the Sagebrush Cantina in Calabasas, California (just outside of LA). Doors open at 6:30 pm. A special component of this year’s event will be celebrating the lives of three recently departed legendary radio DJs: Jim Ladd (KMET, KLOS, SiriusXM, KLSX, KNAC); Geno Michellini (KLOS, KOME, KMEL, KFI, KLSX); and Dusty Street (KROQ, KSAN, KLOS, SiriusXM, KMPX). All were pioneers in the days of free form rock radio, breaking barriers and leading the way for generations to come. The special tribute will be hosted by Frazer Smith, legendary radio personality, actor and stand-up comedian. Smith’s unique on-air style at KROQ, KLOS, KMET, KLSX, and KRTH annoyed most parents and broke ground for countless zany or morning zoo radio programs, before he went on to movies (The Fisher King, Electric Dreams), TV (Dr. Ken, Quantum Leap), and stand-up comedy performances. According to organizers Jon Scott and Kenny Ryback, “The Music Industry Reunion prides itself on bringing together the best of the music business from around the world for this special evening of music, laughter and memories. Past reunions in New York and Los Angeles have reunited over 500 industry influencers, legends and icons as well as the brightest radio, music, management, publicity and marketing professionals in the business.” TALKERS publisher Michael Harrison adds, “So many folks currently in talk radio have roots in the fabulous ‘radio & records’ scene of the 70s, 80s, and 90s. This cool event is a positive and emotional coming together of old friends, enemies, colleagues and competitors. Very special!” New this year, attendees can enjoy light hors d’oeuvres as well as chips and salsa, along with $5 tequila shots. Additionally, the Sagebrush Cantina’s full menu will be available to purchase. Advance tickets are $30 (+ 3.85 Eventbrite service processing fee) and are available here. Find more information about the event here.

Industry News

TALKERS News Notes

“The Candy Valentino Show” joins the Cumulus Podcast Network. Cumulus says, “Entrepreneur and bestselling author Candy Valentino talks with some of the world’s most successful minds, including Tony Robbins, Daymond John, Ed Mylett, and Heidi Zak, while offering valuable insights drawn directly from her 26 years of expertise launching and selling her own businesses. She discusses wealth habits, business models, profit plans, real estate investing, and much more to help listeners achieve security and wealth.”

Audacy Podcasts launches “Women Talkin’ ‘Bout Murder,” an improvised comedy podcast series starring writers, producers, and actresses Liz Cackowski and Emily Spivey as true crime podcast hosts Donna and Jobeth. The podcast launches today (5/9) and new episodes drop weekly through July 11, 2024.

The Pittsburgh Pirates and Audacy Pittsburgh announce an extension of their radio broadcast agreement that will ensure KDKA-FM “93.7 The Fan” continues as the Pirates flagship radio station through the 2027 season. Audacy Pittsburgh will also continue to leverage the Pirates brand and game programming on its sister station KDKA-AM “News Radio” which is simulcast on 100.1 FM and 1020 AM, including the airing of all Pirates weekday afternoon games.

Industry News

Yesterday’s (5/8) Top News/Talk Media Stories

Former President Donald Trump’s hush money trial in NYC; Georgia Appeals Court to review Fani Willis status; the pro-Palestinian protests and the U.S. policy on arms to Israel; U.S. House blocks Marjorie Taylor Greene’s resolution to oust Speaker Mike Johnson; the presidential race; the state of the U.S. economy and voters’ feelings about “Bidenomics”; the Russia-Ukraine war; Barron Trump named Florida at-large delegate to the Republican National Convention; and the severe weather that hit much of the central U.S. were some of the most-talked-about stories in news/talk media yesterday, according to ongoing research from TALKERS.

Industry News

John Curley to Receive 2024 Humanitarian of the Year Award

The TALKERS editorial board has announced the selection of colorful radio talk show host John Curley of KIRO “Newsradio 97.3 FM,” Seattle as the 2024 recipient of the publication’s Sharon L. Harrison Memorial Award for Outstanding Community Service. Curley will be presented the honor at the forthcoming TALKERS 2024: Radio and Beyond conference on Friday, June 7 at Hofstra University on Long Island, NY. Curley has co-hosted 3:00 pm – 7:00 pm afternoon drive on the Bonneville-owned news/talker for the past several years after serving in various time slots during the past decade, includingim mornings and late nights at the heritage station. Prior to that he served for 15 years as the local host of the evening magazine program on Seattle’s KING5 NBC. During his career on KIRO, Curley has spearheaded a number of extremely creative and high-profile charitable promotions in addition to operating an independent business as a fund-raising auctioneer for charitable causes and organizations across the nation.  He raises an average of $80 million per year with this endeavor. In making the announcement, TALKERS founder Michael Harrison stated, “John Curley is a true on- and off-air original… iconoclastic, candid, and smart. His charity work as a radio personality over the years has been creative, entertaining, and effective.  However, it is his remarkable skill and productivity as an auctioneer for non-profits around America that is absolutely stunning. When John gets on that stage, he raises auctioneering to a heart pounding art form and drags every ounce of generosity out of his spellbound audiences. His patter is song and his moves are dance.” To see John Curley in action click here. Curley will be one of 60 industry leaders speaking at TALKERS 2024: Radio and Beyond. For more information about the conference click here. (EDITOR’S NOTE: There were several personnel changes at KIRO Newsradio 97.3 FM this week including in the afternoon drive co-host position. See story below for more details.)

Industry News

Podtrac Releases April Podcast Ranker

There was a change at the #1 spot on Podtrac’s podcast ranker for April 2024 as The New York Times’ “The Daily” unseats NPR’s “NPR News Now” and the two shows are #1 and #2, respectively.  Otherim moves of note for radio-related shows include FOX Audio Network’s “FOX News Hourly Update” rising four places to the #8 rank; The Daily Wire’s “The Ben Shapiro Show” falls two places to the #9 rank, and Cumulus Podcast Network’s “The Dan Bongino Show” steady at #10. See Podtrac’s complete rankers here.

Industry News

Yesterday’s (5/7) Top News/Talk Media Stories

Stormy Daniels’ testimony in the NYC “hush money” trial of former President Donald Trump; Judge Aileen Cannon postpones the Trump classified records case indefinitely; the U.S. pauses a shipment of bombs to Israel as it begins its incursion into Rafeh after not accepting Hamas’ most recent ceasefire offer; the status of Marjorie Taylor Greene’s plan to force a vote on Mike Johnson’s House Speaker future; TikTok parent Bytedance sues the U.S. over its ban on the social media platform; and the severe weather affecting south central part of the U.S. were some of the most-talked-about stories in news/talk media yesterday, according to ongoing research from TALKERS.

Industry News

WPHT, Philadelphia Adds “Walter Sterling at Night”

Audacy news/talk WPHT, Philadelphia is adding a new live and local evening program to its program schedule starring Walter Sterling. “Walter Sterling at Night” will air weeknights from 9:00 pm to 12:00 midnight beginning May 13. Audacy Philadelphia SVP and market manager David Yadgaroff states,im “Walter has demonstrated the importance of the late-night talk radio with his Sunday night nationally syndicated program and has welcomed his listeners, who he refers to as ‘friends on the radio,’ to unpack their day-to-day lives. He’s made strides at ‘Talk Radio 1210 WPHT’ for a decade, and we’re ecstatic to finally bring his entertaining brand to the Delaware Valley five nights a week.” Sterling, who as Walter Sabo operates the Sabo Media Partners consultancy, comments, “Late-night radio is golden media time for a live program. It’s a one-on-one stage for lighter conversations, serving as morning drive for late-shift doctors, nurses, bus drivers, hotel managers, security staff and more. Thank you, David Yadgaroff, Greg Stocker, Jeff Sottolano and the incredible programming and engineering teams at Audacy. Over the years, I’ve made strong connections with Talk Radio 1210 WPHT listeners and look forward to building them as I join weeknights!”

Industry News

Audacy Files Opposition to MRC’s Petition to Deny with the FCC

Late last month the conservative media watchdog group Media Research Center filed a Petition to Deny with the FCC regarding Audacy’s seeking a waiver of foreign ownership disclosure obligations in order to emerge from Chapter 11 reorganization. Last week, Audacy filed its opposition to the Petition to Deny with the FCC. In it Audacy argues that first, the petition is procedurally defective, but goes on to argue that even if it is considered an informal objection, it is defective because “the Commission hasim determined that granting a limited waiver deferring its foreign ownership review to facilitate a licensee’s prompt emergence from bankruptcy is consistent with the Communications Act.” Further, Audacy says, “According to the MRC, Audacy is attempting to employ an ‘entirely new’ and ‘vague and undefined’ special warrant process’ to delay the Commission review of Audacy’s proposed foreign ownership until ‘sometime down the road’ when the company ‘may choose’ to file a petition for declaratory ruling seeking such review. This specious claim not only mischaracterizes the company’s waiver request detailed in the Application, but completely ignores longstanding precedent establishing the Commission-approved special warrant process used in a number of prior transactions to allow licensees to emerge from bankruptcy promptly, while affording the Commission sufficient opportunity to review foreign ownership issues post-emergence.” Separately, FCC Chairwoman Jessica Rosenworcel responded to Congressman Nicolas Langworthy (R-NY) and Congressman Chip Roy (R-TX), who both wrote to her implying that the Commission is not going through “its normal, statutorily required process” and voiced concern over Soros Fund Management’s acquisition of Audacy debt. Langworthy wrote that Audacy being “owned by a deeply partisan individual [George Soros], could have a fundamental impact on the nature of local radio and potentially silence political viewpoints.” Rosenworcel’s response indicates she believes the Commission is handling the matter appropriately, saying, “The Bureau staff will review the record and decide if the transfer is in the public interest pursuant to Section 310(d) of the Communications Act.”

Industry News

Yesterday’s (5/6) Top News/Talk Media Stories

Israel moves forces into Rafah and the pro-Palestinian protests at American universities; former President Donald Trump’s legal battles; Russia announces “nuclear drills”; the U.S. migrant crisis; Social Security and Medicare solvency report; House Speaker Mike Johnson faces a new ouster vote; and the Oklahoma tornadoes were some of the most-talked-about stories in news/talk media yesterday, according to ongoing research from TALKERS.

Industry Views

Monday Memo: Cliché Alert!

By Holland Cooke
Consultant

imRatings – and advertisers’ results – reward what listeners remember, what sticks-out, not clichés that blend-in. So, avoid blah-blah-blah such as…

“on tap for…”

Instead of “…and more sunshine on tap for Sunday,” say “…and more sunshine Sunday!” 

“The best _____ around” or “the best _____ in town.”

Commercial copy Styrofoam. “The best wings?” Say WHY, in a way that makes the listener salivate.

“conveniently located”

Zzzz… 

“weaponized”

The word itself has been weaponized. It’s talking-about-talking.

“spot-on”

Translation: What you expressed affirms my predisposition. Talk radio is more interesting, and habit-forming, when sparks fly. So, pique curiosity. Have your screener move callers who disagree to the head of the line.

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“Too clever by half.”

Measured how? Not self-explanatory, this is distracting. And it always sounds condescending. 

“all-important”

As in “let’s check that all-important forecast,” often heard when weather is severe or changing quickly. Rookie stuff. If it’s important, get right to it.

“In this day and age…”

‘Makes you sound like an immigrant from the 20th Century, speaking with an accent. 

“THAT’S the $64,000 question.”

From a TV show in the 1950s, when $64K was big money. 

“shuttered.”

If something closed, say “closed.”  Listeners don’t say “shuttered” in conversation…which is where we want to end up.

“unmitigated gall”

“in any way, shape, or form”

And on THAT note…kidding…

“Period, full-stop.”

Holland Cooke (HollandCooke.com) is a consultant working at the intersection of broadcasting and the Internet. He is the author of “The Local Radio Advantage: Your 4-Week Tune-In Tune-Up,” and “Close Like Crazy: Local Direct Leads, Pitches & Specs That Earned the Benjamins” and “Confidential: Negotiation Checklist for Weekend Talk Radio.” Follow HC on Twitter @HollandCooke and connect on LinkedIn.

Industry News

Jeff Crouere Rises to President and GM at WGSO, New Orleans

Talk host Jeff Crouere rises to the president and general manager position at non-profit Northshore Radio LLC’s WGSO-AM, New Orleans. Crouere has hosted his “Ringside Politics” program on theim station for the past 17 years. He says, “This is truly a dream come true for me. We have recruited a new board of directors who are committed to work with us to make the station even stronger. WGSO Radio will continue to be independent, committed to free speech and opposed to censorship in any form. While our focus will always be the New Orleans area, we are proud to welcome listeners from around the country… Our station is an important part of our community and will continue to serve our region for many years to come. I look forward to serving in these new roles to ensure a bright future for WGSO Radio.” Crouere’s “Ringside Politics” will continue to air on the station from 7:00 am to 9:00 am and from 6:00 pm to 7:00 pm.

Industry News

PodcastOne Launches “The Campaign Managers” Podcast

PodcastOne announces the upcoming launch of the podcast “The Campaign Managers with Kellyanneim Conway and David Flouffe.” PodcastOne says that the weekly podcast – to debut on May 22 – will “go beyond the headlines and bylines driving the heated 2024 presidential race to offer expert opinions and perspectives in the most pivotal presidential campaign in American democratic history.” PodcastOne president and co-founder Kit Gray says, “Kellyanne and David are icons in the political landscape. Their intelligent delivery of data and facts, their dynamic presentation of opinions and strategy and their wealth of knowledge on what it takes to become the next President of the United States is a privilege and a thrill to listen to, and we at PodcastOne are excited to be able to bring this podcast to the public.”

Job Opportunity

Saga Looking to Fill Weather Director/News Reporter Role

Saga Communications’ Spencer Radio Group is looking to hire a full-time weather director and news reporter for KICD-AM; BIG Country 107.7; MORE 104.9 and PURE Oldies 98.3/98.5 in Spencer, Iowa.im They seek someone who understands small-market, local radio and is willing to be involved in the community. Knowledge of radio automation software, Adobe audition, WordPress, and general computer experience is preferred. SRG offers paid vacation and great benefits including – health, vision, dental and 401K. Send your resume and demo! No phone calls. No voicetrack inquiries. Saga Communications of Iowa, LLC is an EOE. Kevin Tlam, Operations Manager, Spencer Radio Group, P.O. Box 260, Spencer, Iowa 51301 ktlam@spencerradiogroup.com

Industry News

Top News/Talk Media Stories Over the Weekend

The pro-Palestinian student protests and the Israel-Hamas war; Xi Jinping’s European tour; the presidential race; former President Donald Trump’s legal battles; House Speaker Mike Johnson faces new ouster vote; the Russia-Ukraine war; Kim Godwin steps down from ABC News president post; and the Texas floods were some of the most-talked-about stories in news/talk media over the weekend, according to ongoing research from TALKERS.

Industry News

Howie Carr to Receive 2024 Lifetime Achievement Award

The TALKERS editorial board has announced the selection of legendary New England radio talk show host Howie Carr as the 2024 recipient of the Jim Bohannon Memorial Award for Lifetime Achievement. Carr will be presented the honor at the forthcoming TALKERS 2024: Radio and Beyond conference on Friday, June 7 at Hofstra University on Long Island, NY. Carr has been a Boston-based radio talk show host since the 1980s, heard primarily on WRKO. WRKO is now one of more than 20 stations across theim region that carry Carr’s independently syndicated afternoon drive talk show. He is an inductee in the Radio Hall of Fame. With roots in investigative print journalism, Carr is the New York Times best-selling author of The Brothers Bulger and Hitman, in addition to several other Boston organized-crime books and two novels. He has remained in newspaper work that goes back prior to his radio career as an active columnist for the Boston Herald and has received a National Magazine Award for his work with Boston Magazine. Boston organized-crime boss Whitey Bulger was so infuriated by Carr’s groundbreaking reporting that he once put out a murder contract on Carr – a story detailed on “60 Minutes.” At his 2013 trial on murder and racketeering charges, Bulger tried to have Carr banned from the courtroom by calling him as a defense witness. Before he was brutally murdered in a gangland hit, the crime czar still said his greatest regret was not murdering Carr when he had the chance. Carr once taught a course at Harvard, where he had to cross a picket line against himself to get to his class. In making the announcement, TALKERS founder Michael Harrison stated, “Howie Carr is the real deal – the best of both the old and new schools in media. He was practicing ‘cross-platform’ journalism and commentary long before it became the digital-era norm. He’s got ink in his veins and RF in his brains. His impact in the Northeast has been so strong for such a long time that if the six New England States were to consolidate as one, he would possibly be its first governor.” Carr will be one of 60 industry leaders speaking at TALKERS 2024: Radio and Beyond. For more information, see story below.

Industry News

Cumulus Reports Q1 Net Revenue Declines 2.7%

The company reports net revenue of $200.1 million in the first quarter of 2024, a decrease of 2.7% from the same period in 2023. Cumulus CEO Mary Berner states, “While our Q1 revenue was in line with guidance and a marked improvement from 2023 trends, it is also reflective of the uncertainty thatim continues to weigh on advertisers. With the advertising environment still unsettled, these new terms (spelled out in the preceding story) provide us additional time and flexibility to execute against our key business priorities – accelerating digital growth, reducing fixed costs, and continuing to de-lever our balance sheet – each of which is foundational to our ability to build long-term shareholder value.” The company took a net loss of $14.2 million in Q1, but it was far less than the net loss of $21.5 million it reported in Q1 of 2023. Cumulus breaks out its revenue in segments and the total broadcast revenue for Q1 of 2024 was $139.7 million, down 5.6% from Q1 of 2023. Spot revenue was $90.5 million (down 7.3%) and network revenue was $49.2 million (down 2.3%). The company’s digital segment reports revenue of $34.5 million, up 7.3% over the first quarter of 2023.

Industry Views

Doug Stephan is This Week’s Guest on Harrison Podcast

Nationally syndicated talk radio host Doug Stephan is this week’s guest on the award-winning PodcastOne series, “The Michael Harrison Interview.” After starting out as a music DJ more than a half century ago, Stephan has chalked up a remarkable career as a pioneering syndicated talk show host heard on hundreds of stations weekday mornings with his general-appeal program titled, “Good Day.” After 36 consecutive years on the air, the durable show, currently co-hosted by Jai Kershner, recently surpassed the late Rush Limbaugh’s mark as the longest running Monday thru Friday syndicated talk property in the business. Stephan is now in the process of reconfiguring “Good Day” to suit the demands of the digital era and radio economics to ensure further longevity by transitioning it into a fresh weekend news/talk entity with modular application to weekday broadcasts. Stephan’s firm, Stephan Multimedia, is also a major radio producer/syndicator of several specialty radio programs hosted by Stephan and others including, “Good Day Health,” the “Talk Radio Countdown Show,” and a program that is achieving notable traction in the world of agriculture called the “American Family Farmer.” The latter taps directly into his qualifications to tackle the challenges facing independent 21st century farmers and champion their causes. In addition to his work in radio, the indefatigable Stephan is the longtime owner/operator of a well-known dairy farm located just outside of Boston in Framingham, Massachusetts. Harrison and Stephan talk about the state of radio, syndication, media entrepreneurism, food, health, and agriculture including his educated take on the current bird flu/cow issue. Listen to the podcast in its entirety here.